| Author |
Topic |
Black Dranzer
Caldari |
Posted - 2010.11.21 23:47:00 - [ 1]
Firstly: Why?
Mining is one of the biggest parts of Eve. Asteroid belts are in almost every system. The hulk is one of the most popular ships in the game. It's the second most practiced activity in the game, just below shooting things. It's the backbone of the Eve economy. It's also mind-numbingly boring, and it hasn't seen any real attention since.. well, honestly, I couldn't tell you. I've been playing Eve on and off for about six years, and the mining I do in my hulk is the same kind of mining I did all those years ago in my Bantam in Todaki. Just with a much bigger cargohold and ore yield.
Let's establish what this proposal is not about. Firstly...
This is not about macro miners. Macro miners will appear everywhere. Short of adding captchas to every station's docking bay doors, there isn't a whole lot we can do about it. Secondly...
This is not about profitability. I'm not going to argue about if I think mining needs to be a bigger moneymaker. Mining touches on every part of the Eve economy, and I'm not about to go poking that hornets nest with a sharp stick. Finally...
This is not about Pirates vs Carebears. This isn't about gameplay styles. It's about a prominent feature being boring to the extent that it's actively damaging to the game's reputation.
No, This is about gameplay.
We can talk about hybrids or assault frigates or rockets or bits and pieces of the UI until we're all blue in the face, but truly, no feature is both so widespread and yet so actively neglected as mining is. So I'd like to propose that it needs a major overhaul to make it a more interesting gameplay experience. The trick then, is to do it in a way which satisfies the folling conditions:
A) It shouldn't require a massive investment of developer resources
B) It shouldn't make mining needlessly complex
C) It shouldn't completely undermine the existing structure
So now that I've covered the Why, let's move onto the How. I am going to throw some ideas out there. PLEASE NOTE: These ideas are just my personal thoughts and sugestions. Even if you disagree with my particular sugestions, please support the thread. This is not about my own ideas so much as the general notion that mining needs an overhaul. Also, I strongly encourage adding more ideas to the mix.
So, without further ado, some of my own ideas.
Spreading Out The Belts
A current feature is that if you activate the scanner (not the directional one, the probing one) when you don't have any probes out, it takes 30 seconds to scan and gives you a list of the big obvious sites in the system; These are the ones that show up with 100% clarity even when you only have one probe on them. Probers will know what I mean by this.
Using this system, perhaps instead of there being a fixed number of belts in a system, there could be smaller but more numerous asteroid clusters with varying ore types; Say, a dozen rocks per cluster. You could then look into scaling the ores more smoothly across the different security statuses. Perhaps you scan in a system and find 20-odd clusters. Perhaps some of those clusters have the occasional mercoxit rock in them. Maybe some have more than others. Maybe some rock clusters have more dense asteroids but smaller ones. Maybe you have the choice of either going for the first asteroid cluster you pick up on scanners, or you shop around to see if you can't find something more profitable. These little rock clusters could show up randomly across systems, rather than being densely packed. Perhaps some systems just tend to have more asteroid clusters than others. There's a lot that could be done with this.
This is getting a bit full, so continued on my next post. |
Black Dranzer
Caldari
|
Posted - 2010.11.21 23:48:00 - [ 2]
Shrinking and scattering the asteroids
One thought I often have is breaking things up more; Basically, meaning there would be more asteroids of smaller size, and cycle times for mining lasers would be lower. In this, your concerns should be more about constantly picking and choosing your asteroids, with asteroids constantly depleting and the need to pick new targets, as well as keep an eye on your survey scanner to really maximize your output. You could still have the bigger plainer rocks, but it might make things more interesting all the same.
Varying Density
What if, rather than the simple case of three different density measures, you had only the base ore type, but you had denser asteroids give you more ore? In this way, you could give each asteroid not only a size, but a density; Do you go for the bigger rocks that are more sparsely packed, or the really small dense ones, even though it means paying more attention? Pack that survey scanner!
Mining Laser Falloff
Get up close, mine more ore faster. Doesn't have to be an enormous difference, but those bigger mining barges aren't exactly fast; If you want to get in close to every little rock before mining it, things might get slow. Also makes things more interesting for the rookie in the Bantam who can really move about the belt.
Expanding on Deep Core Mining
This is barely a suggestion really, but it's a notable place where you could expand more. Just some ideas off the top of my head: Denser ore, but slower mining. Mine minerals straight from the rock so you don't have to go through the refining process, but again at the cost of slower mining. Maybe make it a gambling, where either you get a big burst of good ore, or the rock explodes into a gas cloud or such. Speaking of which..
Gas Clouds
Why should ore miners have all the fun? Maybe some of those asteroid clusters have more gas than rocks. Heaven knows it'd be more interesting that the occasional Ladar site.
Randomization
Systems are cheaper than content. Rather than just going and designing 50 different rock clusters and spreading them across however many thousand systems exist in eve, get creative with fractals and random number generators; You go flying towards a rock belt, who knows what you might find. A super densely packed cluster of tiny rocks? An enormous veldspar boulder spinning through space? Maybe you'll find something high in scordite, or pyroxeres asteroids with tiny bisot cores. Bias your clusters by the security status of the system and the sector of space they appear in.
Conclusion and Final Statements
The main thing about all the above ideas is that they require little to no actual content to be developed. You've already got the asteroid models and the mining lasers and the minerals and all that; They also don't really upset the core of mining or even the economy in any great manner as long as you're careful about it. Mining still does what it used to do; It's just a more involving process without being too obnoxious. If you're one of those miners who tends towards the alt-tab game, feel free to head to the first belt you find and just chip away at the Veldspar.
Mainly though, this is all low hanging fruit. The payoffs would be enormous; It's a core enough feature that you could sell an expansion off of it, it's hardly a feature that everybody loves the current state of, yet it wouldn't require any real additional content development. A bit of programming time, yes, but everything else is already there. It's a very old and well known feature, and you can shout to the world that, in fact, yes, CCP does care about excellence. Even in mining.
And if you're not a miner?
Hey, more Hulkageddon targets. |
Corina Jarr
|
Posted - 2010.11.22 02:38:00 - [ 3]
I don't mine much, but this might make mining more interesting.
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Slimy Worm
The Skunkworks
|
Posted - 2010.11.22 05:02:00 - [ 4]
Edited by: Slimy Worm on 22/11/2010 05:07:54 Originally by: Black Dranzer
Even if you disagree with my particular suggestions, please support the thread.
I don't support many of the specific ideas since they seem to make mining in noob space (i.e., highsec) too profitable compared to mining in lowsec or player-sec (nullsec), but I agree with the OP's general proposal that CCP should devote resources to making mining more interesting than clicking a rock and pressing F1. |
Mara Rinn
|
Posted - 2010.11.22 08:28:00 - [ 5]
I fully support the replacement of asteroid belts with exploration sites. This was discussed some time ago - at the time the devs suggested a different mechanic to probing since probing was "hard", but in the meantime we get given probing skills, training and a free probing ship during the career training. Probing is easy these days.
I also like the idea of increasing the utility of the survey scanner. The miners could choose between simply mining every single rock, or manually selecting just the richest, most profitable rocks to mine, after which they leave the site and some short time later the site despawns.
Increasing the required manual interaction for optimal yield will help make mining a little more interesting.
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matthiastee
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Posted - 2010.11.22 14:21:00 - [ 6]
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Xynthiar
Gallente
Nulli Secunda
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Posted - 2010.11.22 17:01:00 - [ 7]
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Shandir
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
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Posted - 2010.11.22 19:24:00 - [ 8]
Don't do a lot of mining myself, for this very reason. It's tedious.
It could stand to be made a lot more involved and interesting. |
Arkanor
Gallente
Ixion Defence Systems
|
Posted - 2010.11.22 20:36:00 - [ 9]
Edited by: Arkanor on 22/11/2010 20:36:09
Supported on the basis that mining sucks and shouldn't suck as much. |
Shin Dari
Caldari
|
Posted - 2010.11.22 21:44:00 - [ 10]
Not dying of boredom is a good thing, you have my support.
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LordElfa
Gallente
Golden Lyon Warriors
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Posted - 2010.11.22 22:53:00 - [ 11]
I agree that mining needs a makeover which is the only reason I support this, but seeing as it is the second most practiced thing in the game, it should require developer resources and it should be done, in part, to counter Macros and make mining more exciting and complex. M y corp likes the idea of mining and of being a mining corp but as it is, it's just so damned boring and easy.
Shooting things is never as easy as just locking a target and pushing fire and mining should not be that easy either. |
Stig Sterling |
Posted - 2010.11.22 23:27:00 - [ 12]
Originally by: LordElfa
Shooting things is never as easy as just locking a target and pushing fire and mining should not be that easy either.
Amen to that! I for one believe that many of the problems of mining could be solved by making it more labor intensive. At the moment, all most miners do is watch their lasers cycle (and many don't even have the patience for that, Stealth Miner anyone?). I am not sure what should be done, but it looks like CSM at least has gleaned some ideas from the community, and are willing to expand on them. There is a "General discussion on Mining" on the November 2010 Prioritization Crowd sourcing page. And while I'm not wild about voting on the "We want to talk about it", option, its better than nothing. |
Crazy KSK
|
Posted - 2010.11.23 00:08:00 - [ 13]
the future of mining is in my opinion that most of the rocks spawn in anomalies but what to do with the belts we already have I mean they are one of the main pvp areas in low sec
my answer? well we still got planets also pvp will just shift towards the anomalies
while reading the OP I got the idea of to some extend merge radar ladar and mag sites so you can find some abandoned ship wrecks or some hidden hacking can between your roids also having some gas clouds around in these sites is a great idea and why not extend gas mining to be able to collecting the left over dust clouds of a gneiss roid? |
Jaena Proudmore
|
Posted - 2010.11.24 09:20:00 - [ 14]
I like some of those ideas, makes mining seem alot more fun and more engaging. Also if this system is adopted or some such do away with asteroid belts all together possibly? |
Gallion
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.11.24 10:09:00 - [ 15]
It has merit. |
Cid SilverWing
Gallente
The Scope
|
Posted - 2010.11.24 13:17:00 - [ 16]
Unsupported.
The mining system is just fine the way it is. |
Grideris
Gallente
Fleet Coordination Command
Fleet Coordination Coalition
|
Posted - 2010.11.24 13:26:00 - [ 17]
Originally by: Cid SilverWing
Unsupported.
The mining system is just fine the way it is.
And I love being stabbed for no reason.  If you think it does not need to be fixed, you have either never used it, are really boring, or are a lazy macro writer who does not want to have to rewrite your macros. I say give the system a good shake up. That stuff you said sounds good. Also, when do we get comet mining?  |
Theel Maas
The Praxis Initiative
Majesta Empire
|
Posted - 2010.11.24 22:22:00 - [ 18]
It definitely needs a makeover. It just isn't fun. |
Andrea Griffin
|
Posted - 2010.11.25 01:56:00 - [ 19]
I agree with the principle in general. I don't think that a probe is necessary though - a player should be able to find asteroid belts with the on-ship scanner. Maybe not all asteroid belts, but the common ones with lots of Veldspar and Scordite. This way very new players can get started right away. |
sYnc Vir
Caldari
Wolfsbrigade
|
Posted - 2010.11.25 04:45:00 - [ 20]
I don't like the idea of removing belts, because belts are a natural thing and not having them would seem weird. They are also a pvp spot in low sec, and dropping them would mean more gate and station games.
However maybe bring in Planet Rings, Comets.
Also a better spead of the ore though the sec systems. Living in Caldari space I get the four common ores in belts and nothing more. Being a newer player I have not yet gotten around to the probe skills required to find the rare ores in empire space. However travel to Gal space and you find Omber all over the belts their. Kernite is sitting in Amarr space belts and having not been to a belt in Minie space I cant say anything but given its near both Amarr and Gal space, I wouldn't be shocked if it had both the omber and Kernite.
It seems given the prices of those, that if I wanna make some real money from mining I have to be willing to leave Caldari space. Either that, or be willing to continually take mining trips 18-20 jumps into other empire spaces. Now seeing as an orca and hulk are not super fast at this whole flying deal im not in favor of that.
So could be an idea to either limit the ores in Empire, or randomise the second teir ores more. Maybe the belts people use everyday change. One day lots of commons the next day a few second teir are their. Or at lease even the playing field and give the Caldari a second tier ore.
Not everyone can spend the time probing out a site or WH and move an orca and pos into it for a week. Sure making mining more "fun" sounds like a good idea, buts its mining theirs only so much you can do. |
galphi
Gallente
Furnulum pani nolo
THE SPACE P0LICE
|
Posted - 2010.11.25 11:25:00 - [ 21]
I know Eve is considered a universe and not a game, but having to find a game to play (or video to watch) to pass the time while you're mining is kind of ridiculous. I in no way support any measure that would increase mining yield, but making positioning important to yield is a good idea (less yield as you get further away).
Here's my idea: In the way that PI gave us a mini-game of setting up extractor networks and the like, a mining ship could go into an 'asteroid view', like looking through a mining laser turret at a target asteroid. The scanner could show deposits, and the varying amounts of ore on the asteroid in the same manner as the planets appear in PI (colour = density etc).
Then, you use the laser to shoot the good deposits, blasting them until the ore is depleted, and then you target a new area. Each laser could be set on a seperate deposit, and you manage them and move them around as needed. When the roid is depleted, you select a new one, perhaps move closer, and repeat.
This makes it into something entertaining (shoot those deposits! shoot them for PROFIT!) and may possibly cut down macromining. |
Werawulf |
Posted - 2010.11.25 15:38:00 - [ 22]
I like the idea of updating the mining process but I think we all need to keep in mind (which I think we all do) that changing mining in even the smallest way will have larger impacts in the rest of EVE. Really the biggest change I would like to see is that the mining cycle be stopped the moment all the ore in an asteroid has been removed. That will save loads of time. |
Master Flakattack
|
Posted - 2010.11.28 14:59:00 - [ 23]
Edited by: Master Flakattack on 28/11/2010 15:00:53Edited by: Master Flakattack on 28/11/2010 14:59:43 Originally by: galphi
I know Eve is considered a universe and not a game, but having to find a game to play (or video to watch) to pass the time while you're mining is kind of ridiculous. I in no way support any measure that would increase mining yield, but making positioning important to yield is a good idea (less yield as you get further away).
Here's my idea: In the way that PI gave us a mini-game of setting up extractor networks and the like, a mining ship could go into an 'asteroid view', like looking through a mining laser turret at a target asteroid. The scanner could show deposits, and the varying amounts of ore on the asteroid in the same manner as the planets appear in PI (colour = density etc).
Then, you use the laser to shoot the good deposits, blasting them until the ore is depleted, and then you target a new area. Each laser could be set on a seperate deposit, and you manage them and move them around as needed. When the roid is depleted, you select a new one, perhaps move closer, and repeat.
This makes it into something entertaining (shoot those deposits! shoot them for PROFIT!) and may possibly cut down macromining.
With some work, this could be an excellent idea. It does mean the multi-account miners are going to be in for a hell of a run though. One of the issues with probing down mining sites is barges can't give up a strip for a probe. Either barges need to have probe launchers built into them, or not need probes at all to find roids. Also, think of the hell hunting down 10 minute fields would do to mining ops... perhaps offer some huge belts and some smaller ones at the same time? Originally by: Werawulf
I like the idea of updating the mining process but I think we all need to keep in mind (which I think we all do) that changing mining in even the smallest way will have larger impacts in the rest of EVE. Really the biggest change I would like to see is that the mining cycle be stopped the moment all the ore in an asteroid has been removed. That will save loads of time.
Agreed... this is one of the most annoying parts of running a barge: having to know when to cut your lasers. And considering the UI doesn't tell you exactly how long your strips have been running (it's approximated) you still waste a lot of time even if you babysit it. galphi's idea would make this a non-issue, so there is one potential solution there. I also support the idea of comets and planetary rings offering other ways to mine both ice AND ore. Lots of great ideas here, and what's nice is, many of these have the side effect of making it MUCH harder to macro mine. |
Kyle Cataclysm
Blue.
|
Posted - 2010.11.28 17:01:00 - [ 24]
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Jasdemi
Interstellar Whine Brewery
Monocle Overlords
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Posted - 2010.12.03 20:00:00 - [ 25]
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captain foivos
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Posted - 2010.12.03 21:07:00 - [ 26]
Please make all the time I spent training for a Hulk worthwhile. |
Alias 6322A
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Posted - 2010.12.03 21:12:00 - [ 27]
Make mining more fun, not profitable, but not obnoxious.
That's actually fairly difficult to do, but noteworthy.
Messing with mining inherently is tricky because it IS one of the primary bases of the EVE economy.
Support for researching ideas to make Mining more engaging, without affecting its profitability.
Mining is, after all, profitable. If it wasn't...only masochists would do it. EVE has every kind, but not that many of this particular type. |
Quizzicality
Caldari Provisions |
Posted - 2010.12.04 02:28:00 - [ 28]
Originally by: Grideris
Originally by: Cid SilverWing
Unsupported.
The mining system is just fine the way it is.
And I love being stabbed for no reason.
If you think it does not need to be fixed, you have either never used it, are really boring, or are a lazy macro writer who does not want to have to rewrite your macros.
I say give the system a good shake up. That stuff you said sounds good.
Also, when do we get comet mining?
Honestly, I'm not sure it should be changed at all. I like it the way it is, and if you don't then find another profession, I could use the elbow room. Because mining is the core industry in this game, any alteration could drastically upset the economy for good or bad, just ask CCP's resident economist. At the very least this needs to be well thought out before being implemented. Honestly, I find it horrible that you just throw out random accusations based on absolutely nothing. I agree with Cid that we should leave it the way it is based on my experience of running MANY miners at the same time manually, not with macros. I can tell you first hand, THAT is not boring. If you're bored while mining, there's plenty of things you could be doing at the same time, watching a movie/tv show, listening to an audio book, browsing the interwebs, perfecting your skill que, hack the CIA's mainframe... JK. |
Aeo IV
Amarr
Xomic OmniCorporation
|
Posted - 2010.12.04 02:41:00 - [ 29]
Quote:
This is not about macro miners. Macro miners will appear everywhere. Short of adding captchas to every station's docking bay doors, there isn't a whole lot we can do about it.
Secondly... This is not about profitability. I'm not going to argue about if I think mining needs to be a bigger moneymaker. Mining touches on every part of the Eve economy, and I'm not about to go poking that hornets nest with a sharp stick. Finally...
Despite this, I think these two issues are tied in to the over all problem of mining in EVE: mining shouldn't be so easy a bot should do it, and mining's profitability should rely on player skill to a degree. What if, for example, every asteroid was made up of ore+crud? When you go to mine an asteroid, the beam hits the rock and a mini window pops up. Using this mini window, in which the player rotates the rock with their mouse, trying to keep the laser on the ore, and away from the crud. Each mining laser has a different radius, and different numbers of beam widths', which allow the miner to narrow the beam for those tighter to reach places, and widen it to grab those nice deposits. Whenever a cycle finishes, you get some ore, some crud, and some crud encrusted ore. The crud can be ejected wholesale, but the crud encrusted ore can be refined, but at lower yield, at a station. When the surface deposits are gone, you use a 'blaster' to clean a crud layer off of the rock, and see what's under it, and continue from there. Blast a rock too many times, or too liberally and you'll lose yield, or even destroy the rock completely without getting any ore. However, the system should be optional- the game will try to 'mine' for you, but it's very poor at doing so, only using one or two beam width settings and more or less bulldozing the surface of the asteroid. Naturally, this is easier, but ultimately results in less yield. tl:dr version: I'd like to see a version of mining which, rather than your average mining set up for a barge being striper on high, random meds, and cargo expanders on lows, a system where one might have a barge with a single mining laser, and several 'tool' modules that help you extract the ore indirectly, in the same way a nos, neut, webber, or scrambler indirectly helps pvper make kills. |
Eve Orwell
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
|
Posted - 2010.12.04 10:17:00 - [ 30]
Supported
also, roid belts as sites instead of celestials would be a good solution for when ccp fully eliminates downtime, since thats when they respawn (no downtime, how would belts respawn? sites respawn easier) |
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