| Author |
Topic |
blueharmony5 |
Posted - 2010.11.03 14:51:00 - [ 1]
I was just looking at a discussion about t3s and almost every one was saying how the legion is a bad ship. So is the legion a bad ship? |
Sessym
Amarr |
Posted - 2010.11.03 15:06:00 - [ 2]
It is not necessarily bad, but compared to the other T3's, it is at a slight disadvantage in some roles. |
blueharmony5 |
Posted - 2010.11.03 15:09:00 - [ 3]
 Originally by: Sessym
It is not necessarily bad, but compared to the other T3's, it is at a slight disadvantage in some roles.
Such as? |
Terianna Eri
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation |
Posted - 2010.11.03 15:19:00 - [ 4]
The Legion doesn't have as many roles at which it excels as the other T3 ships.
Covert legion is terrible because it has no DPS, drone subsystem is meh, energy neut subsystem is bad because it has no range bonus.
It's slightly better at being a Zealot than the Zealot is and much better at being a Sacrilege than the Sacrilege, but since the Zealot is so good at what it does already it's not usually worth the price to upgrade imo.
Meanwhile the Proteus is busy being a Deimos with a scram range bonus, a real tank, and more DPS, the Tengu is busy taking a whiz all over the Drake and Cerberus, and the Loki is, uh, doing whatever a Loki is good at (huginn-vagabond combo i guess). |
Aamrr |
Posted - 2010.11.03 15:21:00 - [ 5]
Edited by: Aamrr on 03/11/2010 20:52:15As a legion pilot, let me go on the record: The legion is not a bad ship. Really, it isn't. It's an excellent heavy laser platform, which takes excellent advantage of the range scorch ammo has to provide. It has relatively good tracking in the context of that range. Damage is perhaps a bit anemic considering the price, but it applies it well. The covert ops subsystem, however, IS trash, and needs to be fixed) What it isn't, however, is cost-effective. The problem is that it's an average ship trying to compete with a fleet of awesome ships: the zealot, the sacrilege, the pilgrim, the curse, and the guardian are all excellent ships, and when the legion costs 4x as much, it's difficult to justify the marginal performance gain (if there is any at all: guardian, curse) for that exchange. Add this to the fact that the legion's ewar bonus subsystem isn't particularly viable (low sensor strength; range issues on a laser platform), their drone subsystem is lackluster (seriously, NOONE uses it. Just get a curse), and their covert ops subsystem is worthless... ...and you get a ship that most people aren't particularly interested in flying. A zealot and legion both have a 10% bonus to optimal range. A zealot has 8.33 effective turrets. A legion with the appropriate subsystem layout has 9. That's an 8% damage increase for a ship that costs 500 million to step into, and costs you skill points when it blows up. Compare this to the difference between the Cerberus and the Tengu. Like the previous lineup, they both have the same bonuses to effective range. The Cerberus has 8.33 effective launchers (with kinetic), just like the zealot. The Tengu has TWELVE. That's a 44% damage increase. That's certainly a bit more compelling. |
Aamrr |
Posted - 2010.11.03 15:32:00 - [ 6]
The Tengu is a bit absurd (7.5% bonus to RoF!? That's a 60% damage increase!), so let's take a look at the other racial HAC/T3 lineups.
With two 25% damage bonuses, the Deimos achieves 7.81 turrets. However, it suffers problems of survivability (relatively light tank), and an inability to get into the relatively poor range that blasters provide.
In response, the Proteus provides 9 turrets, just like the legion. This is a 15.2% increase over the HAC platform. What is MORE significant is the how the subsystem bonuses synergize to make the Deimos something that won't get kited to death: With a 50% bonus to warp scrambler range, and a 75% reduction in microwarpdrive costs, it is significantly more difficult to kite a Proteus. When you add the fact that the Proteus can mount a truly prodigious armor buffer tank, the damage the pilot took getting into range becomes markedly less significant.
In particular, compare how the legion's neutralization subsystem, doesn't complement the long range bonuses that scorch ammo provides, nor does the additional hit point buffer shore up a weakness (survivability) of its sister HAC platform. I will comment that the chassis optimization subsystem does help it to maintain range, though. |
Sahnsa |
Posted - 2010.11.03 15:41:00 - [ 7]
Finally, let's compare the Vagabond and Loki. Again, the Vagabond achieves 8.33 effective turrets. However, the Loki's offensive subsystem and additional turret hardpoint provide 9.6 effective turrets. This is, mirroring the proteus, a 15.2% increase in damage output.
More significantly, the Loki's subsystem bonuses complement its weapons platform. It receives a 25% reduction to its signature radius, and its ranged-bonus web ewar subsystem allows it to kite more effectively -- out to its full +150% web bonus. Remembering that faction webs are affordable on a ship of this price, that's a 35km (45.5 overheated) web range. Again, remember that the energy neutralization provided by the legion can't be realistically applied because of range issues. |
Aamrr |
Posted - 2010.11.03 15:46:00 - [ 8]
Excuse me, posted with the wrong character there. Anyway, the legion isn't a bad ship. People complain about its damage, but it really does have nice projection with scorch ammo. What really hurts it is actually the inability to synchronize its subsystem bonuses the way the Lachimos-Proteus and the Hugibond-Loki do.
Instead, the Legion gets placed in direct competition with another T3 that can't apply its racial ewar subsystem, and gets compensated for it: the Tengu. With a 44% damage increase over its HAC counterpart, the Tengu gives a 33% larger hardpoint loadout than its Amarrian competition. While I love the Zealot, and I LOVE the Legion...
...it's just hard to justify the expense. |
TheKalila |
Posted - 2010.11.03 15:53:00 - [ 9]
Legion is fine. 100mn AB HAM brick fit for PvP. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVgxc0bw0PY10mn AB pulse dual/single rep for WH PvE is great. It's fine as a fleet booster too. The only thing that sucks is covert. So Legion is not a bad ship. |
Aamrr |
Posted - 2010.11.03 17:01:00 - [ 10]
Originally by: TheKalila
Legion is fine.
100mn AB HAM brick fit for PvP. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVgxc0bw0PY
10mn AB pulse dual/single rep for WH PvE is great.
It's fine as a fleet booster too.
The only thing that sucks is covert. So Legion is not a bad ship.
I notice that you omitted any reference to laser PvP. Which, given the great wall of text I put together above, probably makes sense.  |
Wrecker Red
Sebiestor Tribe |
Posted - 2010.11.03 21:54:00 - [ 11]
Hearing a multitude of arguments, the biggest problem with the Legion is that you could buy a Zealot, Sacrilege, and a Curse/Pilgrim and get all the same stuff for a lot less money with the only trade-off being portability. |
Leksi Bar'zuk |
Posted - 2010.11.03 21:58:00 - [ 12]
Originally by: Aamrr
I notice that you omitted any reference to laser PvP. Which, given the great wall of text I put together above, probably makes sense.
Yeah because look at all those great hybrid turret tengu pvp fits? Not the same thing, I admit, but you have to accept that it has a viable weapon system for pvp and two viable weapon systems for pve (not that I care about either, I just use it as a gang booster). |
Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
|
Posted - 2010.11.03 22:01:00 - [ 13]
Unfocused slot design. |
Dr Fighter |
Posted - 2010.11.03 22:01:00 - [ 14]
i belive its direct to do with how much better it is than the hacs it replaces and thats the general view taken all over dispite the t3 bonuses to almost everything.
The legion does better than the sac with hams and reps, or bette rthan the zealot with speed range and damage with lasers. Its just not as much better as the other T3s are than their T2 hac brothers.
Also zealots (apart from ab hac blobs) and sacs are generally not seen as much as your ishtars, cerbs, vagas, faction cruisers and such.
so while the other ships T3s replace for the man that can afford them instead, the legion vs any other ship in HAM or laser fits is actually quite good it just seems to have picked up a bad name for itself through assosiation, since the gap is smaller between the amarr hac the isk difference is less 'worth it'.
|
TheKalila |
Posted - 2010.11.03 22:03:00 - [ 15]
Originally by: Wrecker Red
Hearing a multitude of arguments, the biggest problem with the Legion is that you could buy a Zealot, Sacrilege, and a Curse/Pilgrim and get all the same stuff for a lot less money with the only trade-off being portability.
I'd like to see any of them do what a 100mn AB HAM brick Legion can - and mind you this is a cheaper fit with only a bit of faction love, can any of them get: 700+ DPS 1100 m/s (scram immune) 130k EHP and very good cap sustainability. Yeah good luck with that. |
SoapyTits
Amarr |
Posted - 2010.11.03 22:09:00 - [ 16]
Originally by: Aamrr
Edited by: Aamrr on 03/11/2010 20:52:15
As a legion pilot, let me go on the record:
The legion is not a bad ship. Really, it isn't. It's an excellent heavy laser platform, which takes excellent advantage of the range scorch ammo has to provide. It has relatively good tracking in the context of that range. Damage is perhaps a bit anemic considering the price, but it applies it well. The covert ops subsystem, however, IS trash, and needs to be fixed)
What it isn't, however, is cost-effective. The problem is that it's an average ship trying to compete with a fleet of awesome ships: the zealot, the sacrilege, the pilgrim, the curse, and the guardian are all excellent ships, and when the legion costs 4x as much, it's difficult to justify the marginal performance gain (if there is any at all: guardian, curse) for that exchange.
Add this to the fact that the legion's ewar bonus subsystem isn't particularly viable (low sensor strength; range issues on a laser platform), their drone subsystem is lackluster (seriously, NOONE uses it. Just get a curse), and their covert ops subsystem is worthless...
...and you get a ship that most people aren't particularly interested in flying.
A zealot and legion both have a 10% bonus to optimal range. A zealot has 8.33 effective turrets. A legion with the appropriate subsystem layout has 9. That's an 8% damage increase for a ship that costs 500 million to step into, and costs you skill points when it blows up.
Compare this to the difference between the Cerberus and the Tengu. Like the previous lineup, they both have the same bonuses to effective range. The Cerberus has 8.33 effective launchers (with kinetic), just like the zealot. The Tengu has TWELVE. That's a 44% damage increase. That's certainly a bit more compelling.
And your other posts on this subject. Just wanna say that this is the best explanation ive ever heard about the legions disadvantage, thanks!!!!  |
Aamrr |
Posted - 2010.11.04 07:32:00 - [ 17]
Originally by: Soapy****
And your other posts on this subject. Just wanna say that this is the best explanation ive ever heard about the legions disadvantage, thanks!!!!
I love the legion. I really do. I just find it frustrating that there's no place it excels where I'm not risking my character's skill points (wormhole space/HAMbrick PvP). That's the one thing about strategic cruisers I just absolutely loathe -- the skill point loss. Apparently the destruction of a 500 million isk hull and subsystems isn't enough of a sting. Who knew? |
Vidar Kentoran
Minmatar
Eighty Joule Brewery |
Posted - 2010.11.04 08:31:00 - [ 18]
Edited by: Vidar Kentoran on 04/11/2010 08:35:36Comparing the T3s to their HAC counterparts is a little misleading, given that the Zealot is a ridiculous wtfpwn platform and easily the most powerful HAC in the game by a wide margin, and the Cerberus and Deimos are just completely terrible ships that no one should fly ever for any reason. The Vaga/Loki are probably the most relatively balanced ones. If you'd like the Zealot to be nerfed down to Deimos-level so that the Legion can be 'comparably better', have at it :P Quote:
That's the one thing about strategic cruisers I just absolutely loathe -- the skill point loss. Apparently the destruction of a 500 million isk hull and subsystems isn't enough of a sting. Who knew?
Ctrl-Q or Eject, it really isn't even hard. |
Target Painter
Minmatar |
Posted - 2010.11.04 08:50:00 - [ 19]
Edited by: Target Painter on 04/11/2010 09:01:10Edited by: Target Painter on 04/11/2010 08:52:47 Originally by: Vidar Kentoran
The Vaga/Loki are probably the most relatively balanced ones.
The Loki doesn't make a very good Vagabond in my opinion. It makes a much better (faster, almost the same DPS, three times as much EHP) gank Hurricane. In that role, my Loki certainly justifies it's 600M pricetag. Although there are people who use them that way and claim success, so apparently it is a testament to the Loki. My Tengu completely outperforms every Caldari other Caldari DPS ship, by any standard (except cost). Granted, that's not a very hard task, but Caldari need something high-SP to aspire to in PvP. As for the Legion, I'm guardedly optimistic about the 100mn AB HAM fit. So far though, I've been disappointed and I want to like the Legion very much. Aamrr did a far better job of articulating it, and I would +1 it if I could. |
Khorian
Gallente
Versatech Co.
Raiden. |
Posted - 2010.11.04 11:15:00 - [ 20]
I use the legion on an alt, but only as a bubble-immune, cloaked, unscannable Fleet Booster. In that regard the ship really shines, but the other T3 can do that too, to the same extend.
Still, I love that ship. It's like a fire and forget buff bot, an excellent scout and travel ship even behind enemy lines and it looks absolutely amazing in that configuration (imo)
For everything else, I would use a different ship tho, as has been pointed out above allready. |
Headerman
Minmatar
Quovis
Shadow of xXDEATHXx |
Posted - 2010.11.04 12:59:00 - [ 21]
Originally by: Khorian
I use the legion on an alt, but only as a bubble-immune, cloaked, unscannable Fleet Booster. In that regard the ship really shines, but the other T3 can do that too, to the same extend.
I have an alt training up to fly a legion for this very reason |
Aamrr |
Posted - 2010.11.05 07:20:00 - [ 22]
Edited by: Aamrr on 05/11/2010 07:23:32
This is more or less the best I can do with a laser subsystem. 457 DPS, 38.8+6.5km range, 114k EHP, 2284 m/s.
Powergrid is tighter than an Amarrian showgirl, though.
[Legion, PWN]
Legion Defensive - Augmented Plating
Legion Electronics - Tactical Targeting Network
Legion Engineering - Power Core Multiplier
Legion Offensive - Liquid Crystal Magnifiers
Legion Propulsion - Chassis Optimization
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Corelum C-Type 10MN MicroWarpdrive
Domination Warp Disruptor
True Sansha Medium Capacitor Booster, Cap Booster 800
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I |
IceAero
Amarr
Shadow Company
|
Posted - 2010.11.05 14:50:00 - [ 23]
Yup, beating a dead horse here.
I did the math almost a year ago:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1258583
It doesn't work out. CCP must have wanted the legion to be the least powerful of the T3 ships because of all whining over scorch ;) |
SFM Hobb3s
Vanguard Frontiers
Intrepid Crossing |
Posted - 2010.11.05 16:46:00 - [ 24]
Personally I like the legion. But yes, I will agree their uses are much more limited.
Maybe the proteus could do this better, but when there's reds hiding at safespots after running from a fight, there's nothing more satisfying than probing them down with this ship, and giving them a full array of tackle (paint, scram, web) while your buddies warp to you. And with over 160kehp it's kind of funny watching them just give up. |
Adeena Torcfist
Caldari
Dark Underground Forces
|
Posted - 2010.11.06 21:26:00 - [ 25]
i use the HML setup on mine. It could do with a slightly better RoF or damage bonus for the HML's. as well as a range bonus on the Neuts.
for lasers/neut setup, not a good start, as both requires cap usuage, limiting one/both of their effectivness at somepoint if its a drawn out fight.... |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE |
Posted - 2010.11.06 21:45:00 - [ 26]
its pretty awesome at killing npc frigates <_< but hey if it can pull off the 100mn ab brick ham fit well there's 1 good fit for it  |
Kail Storm
Caldari
Caldari Provisions |
Posted - 2010.11.06 22:25:00 - [ 27]
Most peeps it sucks have actually never flown one, I to bought into the EFT warrioring of them and thought they sucked till my Amarr pilot got a Hac Version, and was ambushed with a blob of BC`s and was trapped between 2 enemy Alli`s.
My buddies in the Zealot`s just didnt have the tank to survive as much as our Logi pilots are amazing 30k EHP wasnt enough between rep cycles. Anyways my 100k EHP was more than enough and I made it through until Alli`s came and we wiped them out.
It really is rediculous for a S Hac 50 DPS more than Zealot and 3-4x the Tank.
It obviously shines in WH Warfare also, but it is also very very good at Commandship role, like a Harder to hit Damnation and with a 100 MN AB its very very hard to kill while it boost the Arm of fleets by 37%.
Its not as Good in Brawling combat but still isnt bad 450 DPS@25km with 130k EHP tank is nothing to scoff at, People now are crying about Drakes 80k EHP and 400 DPS so 130k with a tiny sig and great speed with 450 DPS in Point range is great.
It does however lack in its Ewar style because the curse is so amazing, But guess what so does the Tengu.
Basically all T2 Fit it goes like this for best Brawling fits.
Legion=124k EHP with 1k M/s and 450 @25km DPS, Best attribute is its Oversized AB variant IMO
Proteus=133k EHP with 1k m/s and 660 DPS@5km/ 450@ 12-15km and its best attribute is its Scram range which is amazing 17km.
Tengu=94k EHP with 1200 m/s and 580 DPS/or the 5 Launcher 118k EHP 515 DPS upto 113km its best attribute is its Oversized AB and its align times.
Loki=70k EHP with 1800 m/s and 540 DPS@6-10km/420 DPS@12-15km/340@20km and its strongest point is its ability to escape but by far its Ewar platform having 30km Web`s is a bonus to any Gang period, add a Oversized AB and its very hard to catch or kill.
They all have str`s and weakness`s, Legion`s best role is not brawling but Being a Super Zealot which people dont want to pay for since a Zealot is already great, but when flown right you almost never lose your Sniper Legion since its tank is a BS in a Cruisers body and 330 DPS@85km is amazing.
All in all its an underated ship, but can be horrible when not fit right. |
TheKalila |
Posted - 2010.11.07 05:10:00 - [ 28]
While I do prefer the brick version of the 100mn AB HAM fit, there is also a dual rep Sacrilege-like version that can get impressive tank. Pretty much the same fit with a Nanobot Injector for subsystem and 2 medium reppers. Medium cap booster intsead of small and you can drop web for a second cap booster, with your AB speed web isn't that important unless you come across another ABing ship but frigates will be a little more anonying.
The brick fit is better for most things including gangs but the active rep fit can really perform well if you know exactly what your coming up against and using it defensively say to bust up a camp. |
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