| Author |
Topic |
1600 RT |
Posted - 2010.10.08 09:08:00 - [ 211]
Edited by: 1600 RT on 08/10/2010 09:10:41 Originally by: Pesets
Well, to be fair, the turret long-range ammo doesn't give you a per-turret velocity penalty (effectively comparable with webbing yourself). The only turret ammo with a velocity penalty is rail Javelins (and they are pretty much loluseless even compared to standard antimatter).
But that's more of an overall problem with T2 ranged "unguided missiles" ammo. Well, since we're talking about it anyways, I'd say it would make more sense to drop the velocity penalty and instead increase explosion radius on Javelins rockets. But I have no idea how much sense that approach would make on Javelin HAMs and torps.
T2 long range ammo for turret doesn't give you a tracking bonus like javelin missile do but they give you a tracking nerf |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
|
Posted - 2010.10.08 09:08:00 - [ 212]
Originally by: Sela Bacall
Firstly, the limiter on my statement is 'much'. To be fair, it'd be better stated as 'significantly'...
Which is why I specifically said "not accounting for ship bonuses". You are adding a 50% damage booster to get the basis for your comparison which is no way to balance weapons. Lasers, blasters, ACs and even lol-rails have higher base damage than rockets .. in case of blasters more than double. Even when taking into account the optimal-falloff damage decrease that is one hell of a difference. If the intention is to make them 'bleeder' weapons then the ships they are meant for has to have a significant tank (Vengeance got that covered) if rockets are to be in the running .. otherwise they need more upfront damage potential. Personally I am against pinning all the bonuses on the ships as that just pigeon-holes them into specific fitting paradigms. PS: Dramiels struggle against current webbing rocket boats and the heated 1k/s+ webbed speed is the sub-par OD fitted Dramiel which are more of a nuisance than a threat. |
Vokradacka |
Posted - 2010.10.08 14:18:00 - [ 213]
Originally by: 1600 RT
T2 long range ammo for turret doesn't give you a tracking bonus like javelin missile do but they give you a tracking nerf
omg again, JAVELINS have same "tracking" as normal or faction missiles... do you understand? |
Schalac
Caldari
Apocalypse Reign
|
Posted - 2010.10.08 21:47:00 - [ 214]
|
Proxyyyy
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
|
Posted - 2010.10.08 22:54:00 - [ 215]
Anyways, i stated in another thread, that most pilots in eve dont understand the issue. Many focused primarly on the ammunition/weapon system. No-one suggest or wanted rockets to be over-powered and because of that this boost would inevitably amount to nothing (explanation below).
Basicaly, most did'nt seem to understand that if you did boost rockets, most the hullz that are bonused towards their use, had either low velocity or limited defensive capabilty. You need to make rockets over-powered to tackle the problem across the board (do so much damage that having no-tank or speed, would not be an issue). Of course, most would be against that; so, what i suggested between my smack, trolling, and lies, was looking at the hullz individually, because no 2 ships using rockets work the same (you find that out by flying them all).
(What would be a significant boost?) CCP would have to tweak bonuses differently for every ship using rockets; then look at rocket launchers, which need a slight reduction in cpu and grid use (same with standard missile launchers), and charge-capacity of rocket launchers. Reworking the explosion velocity and maybe decreasing explosion radius, would round out any issues regarding rockets hitting after-burning frigates (missiles damage to after-burning ships, scales to other classes too).
Another thing that pilots get confused about, in my opinion, are the Breacher, Inquisitor and Kestrel missile-frigates. Those 3 ships preform better, using standard missile launchers than they do using rockets. They are lacking in defense, but are relatively fast, provided you fit them with a micro-warp drive. The Crow also preforms better using standard missiles launchers and as a tackler (i suggest a role-reversal, with the raptor). These ships dont have the defensive capabilities to engage other frigates under scram-range.
Certain ships also, risk being overpowered! You might want to look at the Heretic, Vengeance, Flycatcher and Hookbill, because they're borderline. On a good note, the new Hawk is very impressive, when engaging minmatar assault-ships and capable of holding its own against gallente assault-ships, provided they dont have a neut (neut-ishkur wtf?). Of course the Hawk setup im refering to is what i use on tranq, but now over-powered thnks to CCP = ) |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
|
Posted - 2010.10.08 23:40:00 - [ 216]
The Kestrel is not relatively fast, Proxxxxxyyyyy. |
Proxyyyy
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
|
Posted - 2010.10.09 02:11:00 - [ 217]
Originally by: Gypsio III
The Kestrel is not relatively fast, Proxxxxxyyyyy.
IS WHEN YOU FIT IT RIGHT!!!!!!!! |
Pesets
The Hunt Club |
Posted - 2010.10.09 02:16:00 - [ 218]
Edited by: Pesets on 09/10/2010 02:43:25
[doublepost] |
Pesets
The Hunt Club |
Posted - 2010.10.09 02:42:00 - [ 219]
Edited by: Pesets on 09/10/2010 02:47:33 Originally by: 1600 RT
T2 long range ammo for turret doesn't give you a tracking bonus like javelin missile do but they give you a tracking nerf
Which is why i said give Javelin rockets an explosion radius nerf (which would be about analogous with tracking nerf for turret ammo). Right now Javelins give range bonus, but it's only useful as last defence if you're already tackled and shot at from beyond your rockets' range - then you can try loading Javelins and try to convince the attacker to leave you alone. But Javelins are pretty useless for offence because you're essentially putting a web on yourself the moment you load them (not even the moment you start shooting), before you even engage. To be honest i'm half suspecting someone put a velocity penalty on them by mistake because they confused Javelin rockets and Javelin rail ammo... And it seems to me that rockets work with real range to the center of the ship. As in, if you're orbiting a battleship at 9km, it's actually 10km for rockets because the battleship itself is like a kilometer large. But turrets and smartbombs work off of the edge of the "size envelope"... Originally by: Proxyyyy
Basicaly, most did'nt seem to understand that if you did boost rockets, most the hullz that are bonused towards their use, had either low velocity or limited defensive capabilty. You need to make rockets over-powered to tackle the problem across the board (do so much damage that having no-tank or speed, would not be an issue).
And that would mean everyone flying Vengie and Maledic, until those get nerfed to hell and back and are no longer useful for the primary role they're supposed to fulfill. Originally by: Proxyyyy
(What would be a significant boost?) CCP would have to tweak bonuses differently for every ship using rockets; then look at rocket launchers, which need a slight reduction in cpu and grid use (same with standard missile launchers), and charge-capacity of rocket launchers. Reworking the explosion velocity and maybe decreasing explosion radius, would round out any issues regarding rockets hitting after-burning frigates (missiles damage to after-burning ships, scales to other classes too).
Wasn't that pretty much what they did? Well, they didn't tweak the fitting, i give you that. But rockets have very reasonable fitting for their power, and missiles are pretty much artillery with infinite tracking, they shouldn't be easy to fit. Originally by: Proxyyyy
Another thing that pilots get confused about, in my opinion, are the Breacher, Inquisitor and Kestrel missile-frigates. Those 3 ships preform better, using standard missile launchers than they do using rockets. They are lacking in defense, but are relatively fast, provided you fit them with a micro-warp drive. The Crow also preforms better using standard missiles launchers and as a tackler (i suggest a role-reversal, with the raptor). These ships dont have the defensive capabilities to engage other frigates under scram-range.
From my experience, Kestrel and Breacher with boosted rockets can actually hold their own against a Rifter (and that considering Rifter is a higher-tier frigate). Granted, the outcome is heavily dependent on both characters' skills, but so it everything in Eve. What Breacher really lacks is a midslot, which it's missing for some inexplicable reason (Kestrel and Inquisitor have nine slots each, but Breacher and Incursus only have eight, wtf?). Originally by: Proxyyyy
Certain ships also, risk being overpowered! You might want to look at the Heretic, Vengeance, Flycatcher and Hookbill, because they're borderline.
Only if CCP gives rockets wtfbbq firepower as you're suggesting, which would be overpowered either way. Right now they're just fine (well, no idea about Hookbill, haven't tested it). |
OT Smithers |
Posted - 2010.10.09 04:15:00 - [ 220]
|
Schalac
Caldari
Apocalypse Reign
|
Posted - 2010.10.09 04:59:00 - [ 221]
Originally by: OT Smithers
Originally by: Schalac
http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/42427-Rocket-Hawk.html
This will be the best AF in the game with the rocket changes. It's already pretty **** as in on tranq.
LOL!
Everyone says that, but secretly they love that set up and have wet dreams about its potential. You can even drop the invul for a PWNAGE and since Hawks do "loldmg", you will never be primary. Well atleast until they see where you sit damage wise on the killmail. |
OT Smithers |
Posted - 2010.10.09 05:49:00 - [ 222]
Originally by: Schalac
Everyone says that, but secretly they love that set up and have wet dreams about its potential. You can even drop the invul for a PWNAGE and since Hawks do "loldmg", you will never be primary. Well atleast until they see where you sit damage wise on the killmail.
Okay  |
Pesets
The Hunt Club |
Posted - 2010.10.09 14:20:00 - [ 223]
Originally by: Schalac
Everyone says that, but secretly they love that set up and have wet dreams about its potential. You can even drop the invul for a PWNAGE and since Hawks do "loldmg", you will never be primary. Well atleast until they see where you sit damage wise on the killmail.
Umm what? Are you talking about FW frig fleets? Well my bet is, you will be primary for the sole reason that your overpriced gang-****d ass will look good on killboard, and 30+mil deadspace SSB will only add to humiliation And damage-wise you won't be that much higher than a gank-rigged Kestrel. Lots of potential, yes, if only for embarrassment  Besides, if the Hawk boost goes live, people will catch up on it pretty fast. In fact they seem to be slowly going up in price already... |
Blnukem 192
Amarr
The Imperial Fedaykin
|
Posted - 2010.10.09 16:38:00 - [ 224]
Leave scorch alone, CCP.  |
Gecko O'Bac
Deep Core Mining Inc.
|
Posted - 2010.10.09 18:02:00 - [ 225]
Originally by: Pesets
Originally by: Schalac
Everyone says that, but secretly they love that set up and have wet dreams about its potential. You can even drop the invul for a PWNAGE and since Hawks do "loldmg", you will never be primary. Well atleast until they see where you sit damage wise on the killmail.
Umm what? Are you talking about FW frig fleets? Well my bet is, you will be primary for the sole reason that your overpriced gang-****d ass will look good on killboard, and 30+mil deadspace SSB will only add to humiliation And damage-wise you won't be that much higher than a gank-rigged Kestrel. Lots of potential, yes, if only for embarrassment
Besides, if the Hawk boost goes live, people will catch up on it pretty fast. In fact they seem to be slowly going up in price already...
Also an AB only frigate will most probably only see use almost only in RvB and Factional Warfare. Perhaps in lowsec as well though, being a frigate, its use in gatecamps will still be quite limited. |
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
DarkSide. |
Posted - 2010.10.10 00:10:00 - [ 226]
Originally by: Blnukem 192
Leave scorch alone, CCP.
Nerf scroch and fix Amarr ships and armour tank instead. Thnxbye. |
Artemis Ahab
Caldari
The Inf1dels
SCUM. |
Posted - 2010.10.10 00:44:00 - [ 227]
|
Sidus Isaacs
Gallente |
Posted - 2010.10.10 09:35:00 - [ 228]
Originally by: Proxyyyy
Anyways, i stated in another thread, that most pilots in eve dont understand the issue. Many focused primarly on the ammunition/weapon system. No-one suggest or wanted rockets to be over-powered and because of that this boost would inevitably amount to nothing (explanation below).
Basicaly, most did'nt seem to understand that if you did boost rockets, most the hullz that are bonused towards their use, had either low velocity or limited defensive capabilty. You need to make rockets over-powered to tackle the problem across the board (do so much damage that having no-tank or speed, would not be an issue). Of course, most would be against that; so, what i suggested between my smack, trolling, and lies, was looking at the hullz individually, because no 2 ships using rockets work the same (you find that out by flying them all).
(What would be a significant boost?) CCP would have to tweak bonuses differently for every ship using rockets; then look at rocket launchers, which need a slight reduction in cpu and grid use (same with standard missile launchers), and charge-capacity of rocket launchers. Reworking the explosion velocity and maybe decreasing explosion radius, would round out any issues regarding rockets hitting after-burning frigates (missiles damage to after-burning ships, scales to other classes too).
Another thing that pilots get confused about, in my opinion, are the Breacher, Inquisitor and Kestrel missile-frigates. Those 3 ships preform better, using standard missile launchers than they do using rockets. They are lacking in defense, but are relatively fast, provided you fit them with a micro-warp drive. The Crow also preforms better using standard missiles launchers and as a tackler (i suggest a role-reversal, with the raptor). These ships dont have the defensive capabilities to engage other frigates under scram-range.
Certain ships also, risk being overpowered! You might want to look at the Heretic, Vengeance, Flycatcher and Hookbill, because they're borderline. On a good note, the new Hawk is very impressive, when engaging minmatar assault-ships and capable of holding its own against gallente assault-ships, provided they dont have a neut (neut-ishkur wtf?). Of course the Hawk setup im refering to is what i use on tranq, but now over-powered thnks to CCP = )
You fit them with a micro when using rockets as well. after all, you need to get in close to deal your damage. And no, Hookbill is not overpowered at all, and the vengeance is defiantly not overpowered! As for the Hawk, I have a hope it will be competitive, and thats a good thing, not the joke it used to be. The new rocket changes are good, I like em, but some rocket using ships needs a bit of a tweak. E.g. I am not sure the Malediction and Vengeance is better off using rockets even with the changes. And kestrel, as the Hawk, would also benefit form minor PG increases. Rockets is after all a pain to fit to most ship, big CPU use and fairly high PG use (the CPU in particular I find annoying when trying to fit amarr ships with rockets). |
Spc One
Gallente |
Posted - 2010.10.10 10:08:00 - [ 229]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Hawk Changes
- +5% kinetic missile bonus changed to +10%
- +3mw powergrid
This is excellent change. I was always wondering why kestrel had 10% to kinetic damage, 4 launchers and t-2 hawk had only 5%. So i think this is very good change.  |
Duchess Starbuckington |
Posted - 2010.10.10 10:46:00 - [ 230]
Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 10/10/2010 10:47:11
I love how people had no problems with the Jag being top of the line and the Ishkur being borderline overpowered but are now crying over the possibility of the Hawk being good.
Cos, you know, it's fine for one race to have the very best ship in a given class as long as it's not Caldari amirite? |
Luthair StoneDog
Gallente
Diabolus Ex Machina
The Amazing Onjoi and his Educated Rodents |
Posted - 2010.10.10 10:55:00 - [ 231]
Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington
Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 10/10/2010 10:47:11
I love how people had no problems with the Jag being top of the line and the Ishkur being borderline overpowered but are now crying over the possibility of the Hawk being good.
Cos, you know, it's fine for one race to have the very best ship in a given class as long as it's not Caldari amirite?
:D It's easy to hate Caldari. |
Antiluvian |
Posted - 2010.10.10 11:23:00 - [ 232]
I not sure why the hawk still has a shield booster bonus after all this time, it cant run anything other than a faction booster for more than a split second and even with it can only tank a shuttle , i dont know anyone that uses a hawk ( admitedly up till now thats very few because of lol rockets) that doesnt passive fit it. why not give a bonus to something that is used. |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
|
Posted - 2010.10.10 12:20:00 - [ 233]
Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington
Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 10/10/2010 10:47:11
I love how people had no problems with the Jag being top of the line and the Ishkur being borderline overpowered but are now crying over the possibility of the Hawk being good.
"Minmatar is the speedy race so we should have the best frigates." "Waaa waaa boost Minmatar battleships and capitals, it's not fair that Minmatar mobility doesn't mean much here, ship classes should be balanced regardless of the racial generalisations" |
xo3e
The Deliberate Forces
HYDRA RELOADED |
Posted - 2010.10.10 12:43:00 - [ 234]
Scorch nerf?
Cool story, CCP.
You shuld also remove all med slots from laser platforms and set its speed and agility to 0.0000000001.
|
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
|
Posted - 2010.10.10 13:33:00 - [ 235]
Originally by: xo3e
..You shuld also remove all med slots from laser platforms and set its speed and agility to 0.0000000001.
They already did, that is why they tailored mechanics to make ECCM and plates/trimarks mandatory |
Proxyyyy
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
|
Posted - 2010.10.10 16:03:00 - [ 236]
Originally by: Sidus Isaacs
You fit them with a micro when using rockets as well. after all, you need to get in close to deal your damage. And no, Hookbill is not overpowered at all, and the vengeance is defiantly not overpowered! As for the Hawk, I have a hope it will be competitive, and thats a good thing, not the joke it used to be.
The new rocket changes are good, I like em, but some rocket using ships needs a bit of a tweak. E.g. I am not sure the Malediction and Vengeance is better off using rockets even with the changes.
And kestrel, as the Hawk, would also benefit form minor PG increases. Rockets is after all a pain to fit to most ship, big CPU use and fairly high PG use (the CPU in particular I find annoying when trying to fit amarr ships with rockets).
No sir! Thier is no way for you to tell how i setup all my ships by looking at anyone of my characters, losses. I consistently improve my setups untill i cannot anymore; even my final hookbill setups have been used, but not lost. I do not use a MAPC on my final Hawk setup, but i have experimented with it in multiple setups (it is closely based off setups i have used in the past). I just returned to game and i haven't even lost half the ships i currently have (Ashimmu of doom). Also i did not say the Hookbill and Vengeance were overpowred, but i did say theyre borderline. Also, these changes amounted to nothing and slighty boosted ships that didnt need it (Hookbill, Heretic etc). I agree with the rest of what you said... |
OT Smithers |
Posted - 2010.10.11 06:26:00 - [ 237]
Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington
Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 10/10/2010 10:47:11
I love how people had no problems with the Jag being top of the line and the Ishkur being borderline overpowered but are now crying over the possibility of the Hawk being good.
Cos, you know, it's fine for one race to have the very best ship in a given class as long as it's not Caldari amirite?
The people opposed to this don't actually fly Caldari, so of course they do not want to see them fixed. |
OT Smithers |
Posted - 2010.10.11 07:11:00 - [ 238]
Originally by: Proxyyyy
Also i did not say the Hookbill and Vengeance were overpowred, but i did say theyre borderline. Also, these changes amounted to nothing and slighty boosted ships that didnt need it (Hookbill, Heretic etc). I agree with the rest of what you said...
Borderline... H-Bill, how and compared to what? |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
|
Posted - 2010.10.11 07:33:00 - [ 239]
Originally by: OT Smithers
Borderline... H-Bill, how and compared to what?
PLease GTFO of this thread. Stop spamming it up with your whining. |
Sepheir Sepheron
Caldari
1st Grave |
Posted - 2010.10.11 08:34:00 - [ 240]
No changes to vengeance? **** you CCP die in a fire. Useless. |
|
All Channels
Test Server Feedback
