| Author |
Topic |
n0thing
Executive Intervention
Controlled Chaos |
Posted - 2010.08.26 12:20:00 - [ 481]
Main problem is that nano-ships, Vagabond/Cynabal/Sleipnir have alot bigger target selection range then any other ship or race.
Needs to be fixed. |
Captain Merkin
Minmatar
Debitum Naturae
Drop the Hammer |
Posted - 2010.08.26 12:40:00 - [ 482]
 Originally by: omgfreemoniez
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: omgfreemoniez
Can you not read? I posted exactly why the other HAC's aren't good. They ALL HAVE A FATAL FLAW.
While I admit that they have flaws (read: are not perfect), they damn well are not fatal flaws. They are all still very effective nano HACs.
Having no drones is definitely not effective. Rules out Cerb and Zealot immediately.
Having no EHP or ranged DPS is a fatal flaw. Bye Deimos.
Drones which travel slower than your average BC ruin the point of a nano HAC. So much for the Ishtar.
Sacrilege is the only one of the ships you mentioned which is VIABLE, never mind effective. Even so, it's 15m3 drone bay, and terrible "real" dps lets it down.
The kicker is that all of these ships have much lower dps than the Vaga, AND much lower speed. So even if they weren't all gimped, they STILL wouldn't come close to being as good as a Vaga.
I really, really get the impression that you have not played with ANY of the hacs you mention and may have had your arse handed to you by a vaga pilot recently. Ruling out the zealot and cerb simply because they have no drones is utter tosh, both are excellent ships and fit a variety of roles very well indeed. Zealot sniper has fantastic range and applied dps with beams, a fast align time and great tracking for the most part. In a close range role it is fast and agile whith pulse lasers and hits to a reasonable range with scorch for solid but un-impressive dps. Cerb is in my eyes a ship that has huge success in packs sat unscannable at 150km off a target pounding it to dust, and can hold its own with a decent set up at mid range no problem, its dps with the right ammo is excellent. Ishtar, who says you have to use the biggest slowest drones you carry, well YOU do, but thats your choice. Armour tanks very nicely, nano fits adequeately with a solid dps and set up configurable range on your drones. I wouldnt rate it as an excellent nano ship but would rate it very highly buffer tanked and in a gang. LOL drones are only lol till they tear your face off. Sacrilidge is from my experience a very solid ship indeed, tanks like hell if fitted right and works damn nicely as a gang ship with hams. Eagle is an excellent sniper, and a damn nasty bugger landing in the fray at zero with blasters fitted and a solid buffer.. not something to be laughed at. Its problem lies with its weapon system and pilot not the ship itself. Try fitting a vagabond to fill more than one role in a gang, its virtually impossible.. though it is fun fitting it with artillery. Munin is a rounded ship that is great at nothing other than ratting sansha. It is an average sniper, decent alpha past 100km but best within 40-50km, up close it can fit a 1600mm plate and have a nice buffer and work with autos, but it lacks dps to make anything worry. Once again its fine in small gang but needs support. Deimos has very strong dps, but does have issues with its speed and agility as well as its survivability. But then again if you get to apply that dps things die very fast indeed. Its personally one of my favourite ships on paper. Suggest you put your time into cross training and have a look at all the ships, see how they fly, handle and fight.. you will realise a few home truths. Hac 5 also makes a big difference ;) |
Wardeneo
Minmatar |
Posted - 2010.08.26 17:45:00 - [ 483]
Edited by: Wardeneo on 26/08/2010 17:45:26
as I said in another blaster boost thread....
Posted - 2010.08.26 17:00:00 - [53]
Originally by: FT Diomedes; Removing the velocity penalty on active tanking armor rigs would be a good start.
I like the idea of this but this would then boost all armour tanking ships not just gallente thus we would be back to square 1, so instead i propose that gallente blaster ship like deimos and mega n brutix etc have a role bonus that cancels the velocity penalty of the rigs, then that will boost gallente blaster boats n not help make armour tanking ships like canes even faster n thus stop the next "omg canes are even more overpowered" style trolling that would follow within a month....
also blaster boats like deimos shuould have a slight base velocity increase and a slight mass reduction and a slight power grid boost and maybe in the deimos's case replace useless high for another medium/low slot.
as for blasters themselves, maybe a slight base damage boost and/or tracking boost and/or a slight boost in optimal range would be sufficient, n with all these "slight boosts" im talking about, they would not have to be big increases, but all/some of these small increases together would help make gallente blaster boats more viable and not overpowered.
... that's what I think would make blaster boats viable.....
-Wardeneo-
|
Corelich |
Posted - 2010.08.26 18:47:00 - [ 484]
Originally by: n0thing
Main problem is that nano-ships, Vagabond/Cynabal/Sleipnir have alot bigger target selection range then any other ship or race.
Needs to be fixed.
I dont know if this is even true, because the Amarr Hacs have a huge target selection range but is this even important? I mean the Curse has by far the biggest target selection range of all Recons. Does it have to be "fixed" because of that? |
omgfreemoniez |
Posted - 2010.08.26 18:51:00 - [ 485]
Originally by: Corelich
Originally by: n0thing
Main problem is that nano-ships, Vagabond/Cynabal/Sleipnir have alot bigger target selection range then any other ship or race.
Needs to be fixed.
I dont know if this is even true, because the Amarr Hacs have a huge target selection range but is this even important?
I mean the Curse has by far the biggest target selection range of all Recons. Does it have to be "fixed" because of that?
The Curse gets its face ****d by a Cynabal which also just happens to have a much bigger target selection than it. Vagabond also has a bigger target selection, although it can't **** Curses unless the Curse is stupid. |
Corelich |
Posted - 2010.08.26 19:13:00 - [ 486]
|
Liang Nuren |
Posted - 2010.08.26 19:14:00 - [ 487]
Originally by: omgfreemoniez
Originally by: Corelich
Originally by: n0thing
Main problem is that nano-ships, Vagabond/Cynabal/Sleipnir have alot bigger target selection range then any other ship or race.
Needs to be fixed.
I dont know if this is even true, because the Amarr Hacs have a huge target selection range but is this even important?
I mean the Curse has by far the biggest target selection range of all Recons. Does it have to be "fixed" because of that?
The Curse gets its face ****d by a Cynabal which also just happens to have a much bigger target selection than it. Vagabond also has a bigger target selection, although it can't **** Curses unless the Curse is stupid.
You pointing out a ship which isn't in the target selection is pretty meaningless and doesn't change or invalidate what he said. -Liang |
omgfreemoniez |
Posted - 2010.08.26 19:19:00 - [ 488]
The Vagabond has a target selection of pretty much ANYTHING, since even if it can't kill it, it can run away, and no harm is done.
The other HACs die to practically anything because they are so crap with their various lack of neuts, drones, and speed.
But of course, the Vaga can't be overpowered because if it was, it would need nerfed. And we can't do that to everyone's favorite overpowered FOTM ship, can we? |
Corelich |
Posted - 2010.08.26 19:24:00 - [ 489]
Edited by: Corelich on 26/08/2010 19:25:12 Originally by: omgfreemoniez
The Vagabond has a target selection of pretty much ANYTHING, since even if it can't kill it, it can run away, and no harm is done.
The other HACs die to practically anything because they are so crap with their various lack of neuts, drones, and speed.
But of course, the Vaga can't be overpowered because if it was, it would need nerfed. And we can't do that to everyone's favorite overpowered FOTM ship, can we?
If it cant kill, lets say for an example a Drake, a Harbinger or well fitted a Dominix why should it attack it? A ship you cant destroy isnt in your target selection. And no, the other Hacs arent crap, well maybe the deimos. |
souhyeahright |
Posted - 2010.08.26 19:29:00 - [ 490]
Originally by: omgfreemoniez
Originally by: Corelich
Originally by: n0thing
Main problem is that nano-ships, Vagabond/Cynabal/Sleipnir have alot bigger target selection range then any other ship or race.
Needs to be fixed.
I dont know if this is even true, because the Amarr Hacs have a huge target selection range but is this even important?
I mean the Curse has by far the biggest target selection range of all Recons. Does it have to be "fixed" because of that?
The Curse gets its face ****d by a Cynabal which also just happens to have a much bigger target selection than it. Vagabond also has a bigger target selection, although it can't **** Curses unless the Curse is stupid.
You are either trolling or are talking about some different game that coincidentally happens to feature entities which share names with a couple of ships in Eve. See, in this game of internet spaceships, Vagabonds and Cynabals are ships that are dependent on cap so they can MWD around and maintain range, and on their turrets to deliver damage. A Curse is a ship that ruins its targets cap at great range, and renders their turrets ineffectual with bonused tracking disruptors. It is, in fact, almost a perfect counter to a Cynabal or Vaga. You won't *kill* them with a Curse, but only because they'll run off screaming the instant you take the field if they have any sense. |
omgfreemoniez |
Posted - 2010.08.26 19:37:00 - [ 491]
Originally by: souhyeahright
Originally by: omgfreemoniez
Originally by: Corelich
Originally by: n0thing
Main problem is that nano-ships, Vagabond/Cynabal/Sleipnir have alot bigger target selection range then any other ship or race.
Needs to be fixed.
I dont know if this is even true, because the Amarr Hacs have a huge target selection range but is this even important?
I mean the Curse has by far the biggest target selection range of all Recons. Does it have to be "fixed" because of that?
The Curse gets its face ****d by a Cynabal which also just happens to have a much bigger target selection than it. Vagabond also has a bigger target selection, although it can't **** Curses unless the Curse is stupid.
You are either trolling or are talking about some different game that coincidentally happens to feature entities which share names with a couple of ships in Eve. See, in this game of internet spaceships, Vagabonds and Cynabals are ships that are dependent on cap so they can MWD around and maintain range, and on their turrets to deliver damage. A Curse is a ship that ruins its targets cap at great range, and renders their turrets ineffectual with bonused tracking disruptors. It is, in fact, almost a perfect counter to a Cynabal or Vaga. You won't *kill* them with a Curse, but only because they'll run off screaming the instant you take the field if they have any sense.
A Cynabal or Vagabond can actually burn to 0m on the Curse using it's initial capacitor, and kill the Curse very easily indeed. You see, a Vagabond has these things called "capless guns" and "switchable damage types". It can switch to EMP which will kill a Curse in a very short time, and even if the Curse somehow manages to break away and neut the Vaga to zero cap, it can easily pop all the Curse's drones (or the Curse itself if it doesn't have a TD fit). Cynabal has more capacitor and more DPS and more speed than Vaga, so the death of the Curse is pretty much assured. The only reason Vagas are meant to traditionally die to Curses is because A) it used to be that Barrage was the only effective ammo for a Vaga, and it couldn't damage a Curse due to the resists, and B) Many Vaga pilots are dumb and try to stay at long range. Point A is no longer a problem, and point B is totally dependant on pilot skill. |
Liang Nuren |
Posted - 2010.08.26 20:10:00 - [ 492]
For what it's worth, I'm pretty confident I could take a Curse in a Cynabal. The Cynabal and Dramiel are freaking OP though, which is why I don't fly them. Maybe I should buy a few and fly them so I can actually make a thread to nerf them.  -Liang |
Seriously Bored
Minmatar |
Posted - 2010.08.26 21:19:00 - [ 493]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Maybe I should buy a few and fly them so I can actually make a thread to nerf them.
I think this is a very, very good plan. I want to see that thread.  |
Kadesh Priestess
Scalding Chill |
Posted - 2010.08.26 21:39:00 - [ 494]
Edited by: Kadesh Priestess on 26/08/2010 21:47:37
If ship is supposed to be blaster boat (thorax, deimos, megathron):
Add bonus to overheated mwd speed boost (props to Fon for the idea). Take number of fitted blasters, divide by number of total turret slots. Apply ship bonus.
Say, for Deimos it could be 30%/lvl, resulting in 125% overheated mwd boost given he has 5 med blasters online. If he doesn't have any blasters fitted - just plain 50%, with 3 blasters 95% etc.
Now, this should really fix them.
Concept of gradual strength of the web (the closer your target - the stronger speed drop it experiences, like from 10% at 10 km up to 60% at 1-2km for t2 web) could also affect blasters positively, but it also impacts tons of other pvp situations - so i can't say it's definitely a good thing. |
Sabine Demsky
Failed Diplomacy
B A N E |
Posted - 2010.08.26 22:03:00 - [ 495]
Ok guys. First off not all ships are fit the same. So saying you could face **** a curse with a cynabal is ******ed, any curse pilot that knows what he is doing is going to live no matter what. Secondly ever think about cross training? UH DUR?! I mean alot of you want a solo pwn machine and you want it to be gallente because that is all you trained. I mean ever think that gallente boats are alot better for gang warfare? Next post is some dumb **** is going to want a 500 dps arazu with web bonus. Cant wait till i get home so i can actually play and stop looking at forums. |
omgfreemoniez |
Posted - 2010.08.26 22:05:00 - [ 496]
|
Liang Nuren |
Posted - 2010.08.26 22:12:00 - [ 497]
Originally by: omgfreemoniez
A lot of you HAVE a solo pwn machine and it's called a Vagabond/Cynabal, and you don't want it nerfed simply because you like flying overpowered ships!
The Vaga is a ship for hesitant virgins, and certainly isn't a pwnmobile. The Dramiel/Cynabal are special cases and have nothing at all to do with other projectile based ships. Quote:
And you don't want to let Gallente be nerfed because you like having easy targets.
I don't want Gallente nerfed because they already suck enough. If you're talking about not wanting Gallente boosted, then I'd argue that nerfing one of the other races isn't really a Gallente Boost. -Liang |
Hiroshima Jita |
Posted - 2010.08.26 22:29:00 - [ 498]
Try putting a scram on a vagabond and then calling it a ship for hesitant virgins. |
Liang Nuren |
Posted - 2010.08.26 22:35:00 - [ 499]
Originally by: Hiroshima Jita
Try putting a scram on a vagabond and then calling it a ship for hesitant virgins.
If I wanted to fight in scram range, I'd take a Diemost. And earn the name all over again. -Liang |
omgfreemoniez |
Posted - 2010.08.26 22:38:00 - [ 500]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: omgfreemoniez
A lot of you HAVE a solo pwn machine and it's called a Vagabond/Cynabal, and you don't want it nerfed simply because you like flying overpowered ships!
The Vaga is a ship for hesitant virgins, and certainly isn't a pwnmobile. The Dramiel/Cynabal are special cases and have nothing at all to do with other projectile based ships.
Quote:
And you don't want to let Gallente be nerfed because you like having easy targets.
I don't want Gallente nerfed because they already suck enough. If you're talking about not wanting Gallente boosted, then I'd argue that nerfing one of the other races isn't really a Gallente Boost.
-Liang
Oops I said nerf instead of boost. Oh well my T1 gunned Cynabal with minmatar/gallente cruiser 3 will be ready in 3 days. Then I will pwn everything since it will be a million times more powerful than my max skilled Curse. 3 days til I stop whining NERF CYNA/VAGA and start whining BUFF CYNA/VAGA! 15 days till my Cyna has T2 guns! 60 days til I have both cruiser 5's! 120 days til I have good gunnery skills! 121 days til next patch and CCP nerfs it and I'm ****ed once again with TWO useless maxed out ships. And the cycle of whinage begins once more! |
Liang Nuren |
Posted - 2010.08.26 22:43:00 - [ 501]
Originally by: omgfreemoniez
121 days til next patch and CCP nerfs it and I'm ****ed once again with TWO useless maxed out ships
Don't sweat it. Since it comes and goes in cycles, just means that you're ready for the next cycle. :) -Liang |
omgfreemoniez |
Posted - 2010.08.26 22:54:00 - [ 502]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: omgfreemoniez
121 days til next patch and CCP nerfs it and I'm ****ed once again with TWO useless maxed out ships
Don't sweat it. Since it comes and goes in cycles, just means that you're ready for the next cycle. :)
-Liang
Maybe that's one GOOD thing about "18 months" - I'll have at least 12 to fly a non-sucky ship if CCP sticks to their plan. |
Liang Nuren |
Posted - 2010.08.26 22:58:00 - [ 503]
Originally by: omgfreemoniez
Maybe that's one GOOD thing about "18 months" - I'll have at least 12 to fly a non-sucky ship if CCP sticks to their plan.
So what you're really saying is that you'll have 12 months to show us all that you suck in a pwnmobile? -Liang |
souhyeahright |
Posted - 2010.08.26 23:08:00 - [ 504]
Originally by: omgfreemoniez
3 days til I stop whining NERF CYNA/VAGA and start whining BUFF CYNA/VAGA!
15 days till my Cyna has T2 guns!
60 days til I have both cruiser 5's!
120 days til I have good gunnery skills!
9/10, I fell for it.  |
Captain Merkin
Minmatar
Debitum Naturae
Drop the Hammer |
Posted - 2010.08.27 00:06:00 - [ 505]
Originally by: omgfreemoniez
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: omgfreemoniez
A lot of you HAVE a solo pwn machine and it's called a Vagabond/Cynabal, and you don't want it nerfed simply because you like flying overpowered ships!
The Vaga is a ship for hesitant virgins, and certainly isn't a pwnmobile. The Dramiel/Cynabal are special cases and have nothing at all to do with other projectile based ships.
Quote:
And you don't want to let Gallente be nerfed because you like having easy targets.
I don't want Gallente nerfed because they already suck enough. If you're talking about not wanting Gallente boosted, then I'd argue that nerfing one of the other races isn't really a Gallente Boost.
-Liang
Oops I said nerf instead of boost.
Oh well my T1 gunned Cynabal with minmatar/gallente cruiser 3 will be ready in 3 days. Then I will pwn everything since it will be a million times more powerful than my max skilled Curse.
3 days til I stop whining NERF CYNA/VAGA and start whining BUFF CYNA/VAGA!
15 days till my Cyna has T2 guns!
60 days til I have both cruiser 5's!
120 days til I have good gunnery skills!
121 days til next patch and CCP nerfs it and I'm ****ed once again with TWO useless maxed out ships.
And the cycle of whinage begins once more!
As a devout fan of both the vaga and the cynabal and someone who utterly loves the curse I would really say this matchup could very easily go either way. Tracking disruptors and neuts at range will negate a good 30% - 50% of a vaga or cynabals dps, not to mention to be effective they are going to be fitting barrage to keep out of your neut range which isnt exactly your weak spot in terms of resists. Curse is a VERY nice ship, it has a huge versatility and a fitting range to match, though your going to be in trouble if you come with the wrong drones to a scrap. But then again you have your ecm mediums to gtfo and no vaga or cynabal is fitting eccm that I have ever seen. Cross training to minmatar is well worth the time if you ask me and kudos for you for going for it, please come back here after you have flown vagas around and post your thoughts on it... its not what you think it is, and I would suggest some time in a stabber to get to grips with how it handles and fights (even though there is a marked difference between them in terms of performance) I have cross trained all races to tech 3 and invested in hac 5 to ensure I get to play with all of these fantastic ships, and they all have their flaws in certain areas and roles, I would suggest you do the same before posting as you have in this thread, its not all what you read on paper and get hit with in the face. Vagabond is at the end of the day limited hugely in its roles and ability to get stuck in where a lot of other hacs are happy to. There is only one hac I would like to see drastic changes to and thats the deimos, and its not its fantastic slot layout, but more in its overall performance in its role... which to me is a clear role: in your face eating your brains... but thats not an option. The dramiel and cynabal both have some issues and are sure to be hurt badly at some point soon, though I would love to see them remain as they are because they add more to the game than they take away as far as I am concerned.. Im not a rich player and taking either of them out for a spin feels exciting and is a real treat because I have invested in them highly and know that at the end of the day a wrong turn will cost you dearly. But like I say take your new shiny ships out for a spin, then come back to this thread and post your thoughts once you have some real pvp experience in them. |
McRoll
Minmatar
Heatseekers
|
Posted - 2010.08.27 00:38:00 - [ 506]
Listen to that advice. The gras seems always greener on the other side but once you flown the Vagabond you will quickly realize that it has a lot of drawbacks as well. There is also little point of discussing Angel ships as Liang said because they play in a different class. The Cynabal isnt that much better than a Vagabond and that performance increase comes with a high price. You can expect that ship to perform if you have to pay that much. In Eve, ships can be belanced by price and supply and demand, like a Phantasm is worse than a Cyna but also costs way less.
If you look at the Dramiel, it excels only in speed and the ability to use dual prop without gimping the setup. A Daredevil on the other hand has face- melting DPS that you can actually apply and is on par with the Dramiel in my opinion. It works beautifully with blasters. Then again, the Gallente have the Proteus which is the best T3 PvP cruiser, so that's already 2 excellent blasterships. Then Gallente have the Ishkur which can use blasters as a supplementary weapon together with its drones and not too bad. The Dominix can do that as well.
In general, Gallente are in a way better shape than Minmatar were before the projectile buff. If anything, they need slight adjustments, like some more top speed for their ships to get in range. That is a completely different story than nerfing projectiles there.
Finally, especially frigate- and cruiser sized classes are the strong point of the Minmatar. That race is based on speed and hit n' run tactics and they apply in those classes the best. Same thing with Amarr, who dominate in the battleship and capital classes. I am repeating myself as I stated the same before I think but it cannot be said enough. Minmatar ships perform as they should below battlecruiser size.
|
Sabine Demsky
Failed Diplomacy
B A N E |
Posted - 2010.08.27 05:10:00 - [ 507]
Edited by: Sabine Demsky on 27/08/2010 05:13:26Well in 122 days im going to look for OMGfreemoniez's post about how his max skilled cynabal got bumped from being aligned, 400km off the gate, then was tackled by the same falcon that bumped and dies solo to it cause the falcon has a scram. Now i think ill head to a recent hybrids post, sinced i have all guns and missiles skills and all cruisers to 5. Idk how hybrids really do except on the frigate sized level. P.S. I actually have t2 lasers, projectiles and missiles, and have t2 small hybrids, so let the FORUM WARS BEGIN! once i get t2 large hybrids. EDIT: What i meant was im going to learn the otherside of the hybrids thing.. i mean if they really do suck they will get boosted right? lolololol so no time wasted  |
Liang Nuren |
Posted - 2010.08.27 05:55:00 - [ 508]
I've had large t2 hybrids for a long time. They need some love. :)
-Liang |
n0thing
Executive Intervention
Controlled Chaos |
Posted - 2010.08.27 11:08:00 - [ 509]
Originally by: Corelich
Edited by: Corelich on 26/08/2010 19:25:12
Originally by: omgfreemoniez
The Vagabond has a target selection of pretty much ANYTHING, since even if it can't kill it, it can run away, and no harm is done.
The other HACs die to practically anything because they are so crap with their various lack of neuts, drones, and speed.
But of course, the Vaga can't be overpowered because if it was, it would need nerfed. And we can't do that to everyone's favorite overpowered FOTM ship, can we?
If it cant kill, lets say for an example a Drake, a Harbinger or well fitted a Dominix why should it attack it? A ship you cant destroy isnt in your target selection. And no, the other Hacs arent crap, well maybe the deimos.
Because, theres always a chance your target ship is fail-fitted, or the pilot has cross-trained all 4 races and his current ship/module/sp combo is very low. Or whatever. Vaga can simply test the waters, a capability that barely any ship ingame has. Other ship is Cynabal wich is lol, takes 1 month to train and you own a killmail printing machine. |
fkingfurious |
Posted - 2010.08.27 11:25:00 - [ 510]
The idea of a Vagabond ever killing a well piloted Curse is completely laughable.
A Vaga will get a single cycle of its MWD off before the Curse caps it out. 3 medium neuts on a Curse will take a Vagas cap out in a single cycle.
With only 10 seconds of mwd speed the Curse pilot (who will be mwding AWAY from Vaga) woulf have to be truly ******ed to let the Vaga in close, not that it will matter because your vaga will have no scram or web (not that it would have the cap to use them) to keep the Curse in place once it gets there.
After 20 seconds the fight will have turned into a case of the Vaga sitting dead in the water being orbited at 20km by the Curse. A single Curse TD does such a good job crippling the Vagas guns that it can't hit the Curse at that range (0.7 + 11 with close range, 1.5 + 17 with Barrage).
Mister Vaga pilot best pray that the Curse aint got 2 TD's fitted, cos if it does and has the smarts to fit a range and tracking script the Vaga wont be able to shoot the Curse or track its drones.
Oh noes, dead Vaga. |
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