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xttz
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.07.27 16:58:00 - [1]
 

Breaking News: Heavy spatial distortion interrupts fight in C-J6MT

"C-J6MT, Insmother - At 23:40 of 112.07.26, the violent clashes between WHITE NOISE., ATLAS and allies came to an abrupt halt after severe spatial distortions appeared on the battlefield."

I'm not sure if we should be impressed or dismayed at this. Game-breaking faults posted on the login page, spun into an advert for 'cool stuff happening in space'. If CCP are going to post this crap it should at least be honest:

"C-J6MT, Insmother - At 23:40 of 112.07.26, the potentially epic fleet fight between WHITE NOISE., ATLAS and allies came to an abrupt halt after we failed to fix lag issues ongoing since 2 expansions ago. Hundreds of players logged off in disgust."

Seith Silverstein
Something Rotten
Posted - 2010.07.27 17:07:00 - [2]
 

Because the ISC != CCP. ISC is trying to report on a huge fight that didn't take place because of lag. Since they're an RP organization, they can't say "lag". As such, they mumbo-jumbo'd something about spatial distortion.

Why CCP posted it on their front page is a good question though. Remember, by and large the low-level devs and coders (including people who upload things to the website) want the game to be awesome, and want the players to be happy. It's the idiotic suits upstairs that want you to walk around in stations while 50vs50 fights remain unresolved. Perhaps it's some kind of inter-company propaganda/social commentary? Perhaps everything the ISC prints ends up on the CCP page regardless? Perhaps they're using the same RNG that gives us 100,000 ABs/MWDs for mission loot?

The world may never know.

Professor Tarantula
Hedion University
Posted - 2010.07.27 17:08:00 - [3]
 

So which alliance are the goon alts in?

Joe SMASH
You Got A Purty Mouth
Posted - 2010.07.27 17:08:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Joe SMASH on 27/07/2010 17:08:42
Because even the ISC is beginning to get sick of the lag.

(I do not speak for them, nor am I a member. (I just have a hunch they are tired of the broken game as well.))

Shobon Welp
GoonFleet
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2010.07.27 17:13:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Professor Tarantula
So which alliance are the goon alts in?


all of them

GoingOffRoading
Gallente
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2010.07.27 17:38:00 - [6]
 

Its a little odd that people always complain about lag in 500+ vs 500+ fights.

How many multiplayer games support 1000+ players fighting eachother at once in one spot together...

Even FW gets laggy but I don't beat my chest over it.

Gladys Pank
Amarr
Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta
Posted - 2010.07.27 17:43:00 - [7]
 

I especially like how they use epic fleet battles as a promotional focus because it sounds exciting, even if its completely broken at this time. Meanwhile they continue to develop wow in space because game breaking faults are of no interest to whoring subscriptions. Walking about in stations doing nothing is far more urgent than making the game playable. I am sure you will agree, CCP have already said so.

Zelda Wei
Caldari
New Horizon Trade Exchange
Posted - 2010.07.27 17:48:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Zelda Wei on 27/07/2010 19:10:55
Be part of the Solution not a big Cheese

Image changed to URL. Zymurgist

Xenon Barinade
Caldari
Helix Protocol
Posted - 2010.07.27 17:48:00 - [9]
 

I am currently playing travian because no matter how big the numbers are the server never laggs its pretty much eve without lagg Laughing

You know its bad when fleet fights in a browser game run smoothly and fail horribly STILL in a true mmo Cool

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2010.07.27 17:59:00 - [10]
 

In reality fleet fights is the only problem that has several devs dedicated to it, to quote:
Quote:
The others!

(4 teams, approximately 15 developers)

I‘ve now accounted for 14 teams, but we release plan for 18 teams. So what are the rest doing? Well, we have a team dedicated to testing automation. Currently they are focusing on "fleet fight in a can," which is a borderline sentient AI-testing automation feature that allows us to instantly simulate interesting aspects of massive fleet fights, getting tighter feedback loops to the expert team that is working on improvements on that front (we are talking MIT Ph.D. here). There is a team dedicated to making tools and reporting mechanism for the customer service department. The core infrastructure team (patch delivery mechanisms, among other duties) is in there, and then there‘s a another team dedicated to performance monitoring and improvements.

On top of that we have some (space) cowboys running around injecting code into Tranquility live to debug fleet battles and fix exploits (these are the same people that do code reviews and architectural integrity checks for the EVE codebase). This is where the MIT Ph.D. come into play. This doesn‘t fall under the classification of a development team but contains computer scientists, QA people, operational staff and others. They are hard-at-work (often well-outside normal working hours) profiling and diagnosing all sorts of lag-related issues or trying to catch fringe cases that are impossible to reproduce on our test servers. This team will be greatly assisted by the "fleet fight in a can" sentient AI.


That make about 7 developers plus the "space cowboys" as the people working on finding what is the source of the fleet fight lag and trying to fix it.

A large percentage of the 37 or so people working on the core of the EVE game.

xttz
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.07.27 18:09:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: GoingOffRoading
Its a little odd that people always complain about lag in 500+ vs 500+ fights.

How many multiplayer games support 1000+ players fighting eachother at once in one spot together...

Even FW gets laggy but I don't beat my chest over it.


Actually in the months leading up to Dominion things were pretty good. If you asked for a reinforced node with enough warning 1000 people could fight with little issue. There was some degree of lag, but it was a slowed rate of weapons fire rather than one side looking at a black screen while their fleet exploded.

I guess the root of the issue is that attempting to support immense battles is a waste of time, as people always bring more. However three glaring mistakes spring to mind:
1) There was no testing methodology to backtrack what went wrong code-wise in Dominion, and fix it.
2) Dominion itself was an abortion. The expansion intended to revamp huge blobs on sov warfare resulted in even larger fleets being needed to break the defensive bonus. CCP could have just as easily built the mechanics based around one of the many suggestions to split fleets up, such as having to SBU the gates outside the system you're trying to take.
3) These failures get spun into interesting stories rather than what they are - a lession in how not to develop something.

Doctor Ungabungas
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.07.27 18:15:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: GoingOffRoading
How many multiplayer games support 1000+ players fighting eachother at once in one spot together...


The well known internet spaceship game Eve Online used to support 1000+ players fighting at one spot.

I can't imagine why they took that feature out.

Ford Mersombre
Posted - 2010.07.27 18:25:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: xttz
Breaking News: Heavy spatial distortion interrupts fight in C-J6MT

"C-J6MT, Insmother - At 23:40 of 112.07.26, the violent clashes between WHITE NOISE., ATLAS and allies came to an abrupt halt after severe spatial distortions appeared on the battlefield."

I'm not sure if we should be impressed or dismayed at this. Game-breaking faults posted on the login page, spun into an advert for 'cool stuff happening in space'. If CCP are going to post this crap it should at least be honest:

"C-J6MT, Insmother - At 23:40 of 112.07.26, the potentially epic fleet fight between WHITE NOISE., ATLAS and allies came to an abrupt halt after we failed to fix lag issues ongoing since 2 expansions ago. Hundreds of players logged off in disgust."



I thought it was actually kind of clever for the ISD to put that in so they could remain IC while reporting on a huge fleet battle that got interrupted by lag.

Dirk Mortice
Posted - 2010.07.27 18:36:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: GoingOffRoading
Its a little odd that people always complain about lag in 500+ vs 500+ fights.

How many multiplayer games support 1000+ players fighting eachother at once in one spot together...

Even FW gets laggy but I don't beat my chest over it.


I used to have lots of fun in some 300v300 fights in the amazing game "Eve Online"

These days I experience jump lag with less than 100 people in fleet, never mind actually shooting at something

Pennwisedom
Gallente
Sublime.
Posted - 2010.07.27 18:44:00 - [15]
 

I think we need to understand the difference between "advertising" and "in game news trying to report in character."

So the real question here is why make a terrible thread?

Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
Posted - 2010.07.27 18:46:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Zeba on 27/07/2010 19:27:15


Originally by: Doctor Ungabungas
Originally by: GoingOffRoading
How many multiplayer games support 1000+ players fighting eachother at once in one spot together...


The well known internet spaceship game Eve Online used to support 1000+ players fighting at one spot.

I can't imagine why they took that feature out.
Because ccp massively underestimated the organizational skills of the moar dedicated players who actually got their alliances to the point they could eventually field thousands of capital ships. In a single fight no less. I seriously don't think ccp was ready for that to happen so soon and that was reflected in their initial reasoning for bringing titans into the game because they stated "welp they cost so gosh darned much and take so annoyingly long to build only a few mega alliances will ever make one and then only for e-peening". Riiiiiiiight..

Remember that first 1000 ship fight that failed utterly due to lag? Then the rage when someone dug up some obscure video interview with Ovuer(maybe?) talking about how awesome it was that the players could actually get 1000 pilots all in one place to do something for an overall goal spoken in a wonderous tone of disbelief? I mean seriously the guy looked kinda stunned like he was thinking to himself "wtf have we unleashed?!?" as he talked. Of couse we all know how the forums completely missed that part and just flamed on the part of him bragging about a 1000 ship fight. But the flaming eventually got ccp to hopping and we had our brief summer of fun with laggish free 1000 ship fights. Then Dominion rolled in and poof instantly back to even worse nullsec fleet lag than the bad ole days.

But now to actually answer your question. Blame all the major alliance leaders as they were the ones who threatened to drop their newly lag free capital blob on anything that tried to claim any new territory because boo hoo ccp nerfed their massive afk empire mechanic that made them multi trillionares with little effort after they got enough cynojammers up. Small startup corp wanting to claim a fairly worthless system in a strategically useless area so they could improve it to make some decent isk and enjoy the game by 'owning' a little bit of territory? Pffft. Hotdrop the titans and dd that hauler!! Take that CCP! Then Dominion which showed no hint of any forseeable lag on the test server shipped a week later and.. well, no need to repeat common knowledge.

And so The Age Of Nap was born.ugh

darla voglio
Posted - 2010.07.27 18:52:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Pennwisedom
I think we need to understand the difference between "advertising" and "in game news trying to report in character."

So the real question here is why make a terrible thread?


Becouse many do not have this difference clear in their mind, not everybody likes to roleplay, a lot more do not even care and many others are angry with CCP for this or that reason.

Personally I like IC reports, and in this case they even managed to write it as the events were unfolding and they managed to remain In Character and still report of one of the worst laggy battles ever.

Icantseeanythinginthis
Amarr
Hedion University
Posted - 2010.07.27 19:00:00 - [18]
 

Because they better get use to it, a console game is more important.

iP0D
Posted - 2010.07.27 19:14:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Zeba


And so The Age Of Nap was born.ugh


Which gave way to the age of Paypal Titans & Milfs at volume discount.

CCP Manifest


C C P
Posted - 2010.07.27 19:31:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: CCP Manifest on 27/07/2010 19:40:17
Originally by: Seith Silverstein
Because the ISC != CCP. ISC is trying to report on a huge fight that didn't take place because of lag. Since they're an RP organization, they can't say "lag". As such, they mumbo-jumbo'd something about spatial distortion.

Why CCP posted it on their front page is a good question though. Remember, by and large the low-level devs and coders (including people who upload things to the website) want the game to be awesome, and want the players to be happy. It's the idiotic suits upstairs that want you to walk around in stations while 50vs50 fights remain unresolved. Perhaps it's some kind of inter-company propaganda/social commentary? Perhaps everything the ISC prints ends up on the CCP page regardless? Perhaps they're using the same RNG that gives us 100,000 ABs/MWDs for mission loot?

The world may never know.


Seith Silverstein hit it on the head with his first couple sentences. Using RP terms to try not to break immersion.

Even knowing this, I still /facepalmed_epic at this when I read it earlier.

I can assure you that CCP isn't suddenly thinking we're going to pull the wool over your eyes and say lag is a feature. Sfortunatamente(Italian for major bummer), since we like to trumpet player news like the IC stuff, we Facebook'd it as well, which we shouldn't have done, giving the appearance that we somehow endorse this RP "justification" as our new stand on lag. Lag is an evil terrible monster that we want to strangle and bury. We hates it. HATES IT.

To further clarify, RP/IC news gets autopopulated to the front page and in many places around the site. So, because we like "player driven" news to appear there alongside the content RP news, that's how it got there.

Monkey Saturday
Unknown Soldiers
The Spire Collective
Posted - 2010.07.27 19:43:00 - [21]
 

Wow seems that the player driven news left ccp with some public egg on face issues. What do you plan on doing about that if I may ask?

Myself, I can see 2 options.

#1: ccp will release a public notification telling everyone they are aware their last 2 expansions have increased the lag issue and they will be working full force to fix that as it breaks the core selling point of their game (and give a realistic timetable to completion).

#2: stop or severely edit player driven news articles.

I have a good idea which one would end up being adopted.

TheStarman
Blue Republic
Posted - 2010.07.27 19:44:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: CCP Manifest
*Manifest being a bro*


See, its not the devs that we have the problem with, its your CEO/Board of Directors that I want to hit over the head with my prosthetic leg. I'd buy a few rounds for the devs.

xttz
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.07.27 19:57:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: CCP Manifest

Sfortunatamente(Italian for major bummer), since we like to trumpet player news like the IC stuff, we Facebook'd it as well, which we shouldn't have done, giving the appearance that we somehow endorse this RP "justification" as our new stand on lag. Lag is an evil terrible monster that we want to strangle and bury. We hates it. HATES IT.


Great. I didn't actually didn't expect this thread to work, but hey here you are. Now that I (hopefully still) have your attention, here is my point:

With Dominion you had a great opportunity to reduce the need for constantly increasing fleet battles, by making simple game mechanics changes. For exmaple: my post above regarding putting SBU's on the gates outside the system being fought over.
Why was this chance fluffed so badly? Instead we now have a system that brings even more people out at a single place and time. Are there any plans to revisit these mechanics in the near future?

Ghaylenty
Posted - 2010.07.27 19:57:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: GoingOffRoading
Its a little odd that people always complain about lag in 500+ vs 500+ fights.

How many multiplayer games support 1000+ players fighting eachother at once in one spot together...

Even FW gets laggy but I don't beat my chest over it.


the thing is, it worked. or at least, it used to. so we have EVERY right to complain, as they have quite literally taken eve on a steep downhill decline in quality since 2-3 expansions ago.

Breaker77
Gallente
Reclamation Industries
Posted - 2010.07.27 20:01:00 - [25]
 


CCP Manifest


C C P
Posted - 2010.07.27 20:17:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Monkey Saturday
Wow seems that the player driven news left ccp with some public egg on face issues. What do you plan on doing about that if I may ask?

Myself, I can see 2 options.

#1: ccp will release a public notification telling everyone they are aware their last 2 expansions have increased the lag issue and they will be working full force to fix that as it breaks the core selling point of their game (and give a realistic timetable to completion).

#2: stop or severely edit player driven news articles.

I have a good idea which one would end up being adopted.


There are so many more options than those! You've seen Inception right? How about Men in Black? Don't make me go One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest!

On a more serious note, the community team is going to continue working with those operating on the complicated "lag" issue to make sure their progress is communicated clearly via dev blogs. It's clear that more "insider" knowledge is important to the fanbase and inclusion in the progress is as well.

Stopping player driven news articles would be crazy. We wouldn't do that. We enjoy reading them!
Severely editing them is also crazy as well. Honestly, I just consider this a hiccup. An unfortunate one, but the amount of good that the Interstellar Correspondents do bring, even if they can't be telling all of New Eden's stories, far outweighs a bit-too-much flair with the use of RP language.

Corozan Aspinall
Perkone
Posted - 2010.07.27 20:22:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Corozan Aspinall on 27/07/2010 21:03:32

Edit: Oh nevermind. Rolling Eyes

Monkey Saturday
Unknown Soldiers
The Spire Collective
Posted - 2010.07.27 20:27:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: CCP Manifest
On a more serious note, the community team is going to continue working with those operating on the complicated "lag" issue to make sure their progress is communicated clearly via dev blogs. It's clear that more "insider" knowledge is important to the fanbase and inclusion in the progress is as well.


Nice to finally hear that. My subscription runs out on Saturday. Lets hope this dev blog happens before then and totally wows me.

Cailais
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2010.07.27 20:42:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: CCP Manifest

Even knowing this, I still /facepalmed_epic at this when I read it earlier.



I don't know why youre /facepalming. They're only trying to report the game as is, as best they can.

C.

CCP Manifest


C C P
Posted - 2010.07.27 21:03:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: xttz
Originally by: CCP Manifest

Sfortunatamente(Italian for major bummer), since we like to trumpet player news like the IC stuff, we Facebook'd it as well, which we shouldn't have done, giving the appearance that we somehow endorse this RP "justification" as our new stand on lag. Lag is an evil terrible monster that we want to strangle and bury. We hates it. HATES IT.


Great. I didn't actually didn't expect this thread to work, but hey here you are. Now that I (hopefully still) have your attention, here is my point:

With Dominion you had a great opportunity to reduce the need for constantly increasing fleet battles, by making simple game mechanics changes. For exmaple: my post above regarding putting SBU's on the gates outside the system being fought over.
Why was this chance fluffed so badly? Instead we now have a system that brings even more people out at a single place and time. Are there any plans to revisit these mechanics in the near future?



You still have my attention :)
There are some really cool suggestions out there on how to change "simple game mechanics" to help address fleet battles--many of which came via forums, Fanfest and the CSM. Of course, none of them are really ever that simple to change or design in a sandbox game, as any change can have a Butterfly Effect. Could mean for some a calm, warm sunny California day. For others it could mean a typhoon halfway around the world.

Of course Dominion wasn't our only opportunity to change mechanics surrounding fleet fights or their "objectives". We will always continue to patch and expand. I don't know of any IMMEDIATE plans to do any revamps on game design for fleets/blobs, but there is opportunity in the future.

The freedom of EVE (where you can go pretty much wherever you want) and the basic human impetus that knows bringing 22 pilots to a 20 pilot fight increases your odds of winnning, both make for even more complicated design process. Furthermore, no matter how you incentivize people towards objectives, you still will end up with people wanting to Zerg Rush. We've seen it constantly in our space travels. Even in non combat as when we increased the operational limit of Jita. It's a healthy phenomenon to have, sure, so no complaining here.*

*That last paragraph included just as an aside, I'm sure everyone reading this already knows that.




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