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blankseplocked CCP, you are stretching the rope with Incarna and Dust 514
 
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Aelius
Caldari
Mnemonic Enterprises
Dark Matter Coalition
Posted - 2010.07.18 06:54:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Aelius on 18/07/2010 07:31:51



After reading Zulu's Dev blog it has become clear that CCP is "stretching the rope" upon even players.

I recon that Incarna is the next logical step, but only after fixing some key broken key features in EVE (ie:FW). I don't need to remind you that "internet spaceships" was what got you so far as a company, AND we players LIKE "internet spaceships", IF full body chars were so important to us, we would be playing another "in char" game like WOW.

Now stating that your main priority for the next year (or more) will NOT be "internet spaceships", you will be stretching the rope upon us that supported EVE from the very beginning. You are putting all yours cards in Incarna and DUST 514, both clearly not the main stream of an EVE player.

Although i may recon that Incarna will probably be cool, its for sure NOT my priority as an EVE player.

About Dust 514... Well stretching the rope upon us because of some "hit hard die fast" console game it's a poor choice imo. The age target of Dust 514 will be a lot low that EVE's, and having a 14 years old as my son i realize that he never plays the same game for long. Furthermore as Dust 514 doesn't need a monthly subscription, you risk losing a good chunk of faithfull monthly paying EVE players in exchange for temporary income (from selling hard copy's of Dust 514).

Your view CCP is, perhaps, correct, but the time line is bad. You are rushing things and leaving too many "open wounds" in EVE's core gameplay internet spaceships. Pray that your core EVE player base is as though as you expect them to be.

Father Grigori
Amarr
Posted - 2010.07.18 06:57:00 - [2]
 

I agree. Fix rockets.

Halcyon Ingenium
Caldari
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
Sanctuary Pact
Posted - 2010.07.18 07:00:00 - [3]
 

I agree, the Beatles weren't that great.

Gladys Pank
Amarr
Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta
Posted - 2010.07.18 07:08:00 - [4]
 

I've never tried it but I heard it gives you bad farts.

Janus Nightmare
Gallente
ECP Incorporated
Posted - 2010.07.18 07:53:00 - [5]
 

You do realize that neither Incarna nor Dust is going to affect how you play Eve unless you choose to let it. Nobody has yet stated that you must get out of your pod, physically walk around your ship, inspect it, and repair it yourself. You will never be forced to go out, strip down to your boxers, and dance on a pole in order to attract crew members. Nor is there any reason for you to get involved with PI unless you're an industrialist that really wants to get involved with it.

You also do realize that both Incarna and Dust, especially Dust, opens up CCP to entirely new types of players who may never leave the station/planet and thus will only impact your game with changes to the market (inevitable regardless of Dust or Incarna) but will provide CCP with more money to hire more devs, some of whom will be assigned to fixing bugs within Eve itself.

Incarna and Dust are both potentially large sources of revenue for CCP. Revenue that is needed to hire more devs, QA, designers, etc to both fix and expand Eve itself. How many subscribers does Eve have? 350K? Half a million? It sounds like a lot until you consider the cost of maintaining and continuously expanding a game like Eve. Not many MMO's of any flavor can last for long on such a small number of subscribers, yet CCP does exceptionally well, even hiring more developers as we speak. If you want fixes, then you have to let CCP find the resources to develop those fixes, and both Dust and Incarna are the path to finding those resources.

I have to say, I'm astounded that, with the generally high level of intelligence required to play this game, people can't seem to see that both Dust and Incarna are a long-term solution to keeping Eve alive and kicking for many years to come. Were I an investor, I'd see both Incarna and Dust as extremely positive portents for the future of both Eve and CCP. It's so odd that very few people see this, considering how much of the game is based around its market economy.

I'm not being a fanboi defender here, just pointing out that there are considerations to be made that require looking at the long-term outcome of CCP's current development plan.

Gavjack Bunk
Gallente
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2010.07.18 08:03:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Janus Nightmare
with the generally high level of intelligence required to play this game


::spitcoffee::

Kovcher Staklinch
Caldari
Universal Moose Federation
Posted - 2010.07.18 08:10:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Kovcher Staklinch on 18/07/2010 08:12:00
Originally by: Janus Nightmare
Blah Blah Blah...


The OP didn't say Incarna or Dust is bad. I think he meant more like CCP, like any other professional company must not move on to another project without fixing ( obvious, clearly visibile ) current issues.

But I do suggest the OP to read CCP Zulu's last blog.

Originally by: Jasdemi
Totally agree with the OP, learning skills are a hindrance for newer player and must be removed!


@jasdemi stop with the learning skills already. It's getting really old now.


lodik
Posted - 2010.07.18 08:17:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Janus Nightmare
You do realize that neither Incarna nor Dust is going to affect how you play Eve unless you choose to let it. Nobody has yet stated that you must get out of your pod, physically walk around your ship, inspect it, and repair it yourself. You will never be forced to go out, strip down to your boxers, and dance on a pole in order to attract crew members. Nor is there any reason for you to get involved with PI unless you're an industrialist that really wants to get involved with it.

You also do realize that both Incarna and Dust, especially Dust, opens up CCP to entirely new types of players who may never leave the station/planet and thus will only impact your game with changes to the market (inevitable regardless of Dust or Incarna) but will provide CCP with more money to hire more devs, some of whom will be assigned to fixing bugs within Eve itself.

Incarna and Dust are both potentially large sources of revenue for CCP. Revenue that is needed to hire more devs, QA, designers, etc to both fix and expand Eve itself. How many subscribers does Eve have? 350K? Half a million? It sounds like a lot until you consider the cost of maintaining and continuously expanding a game like Eve. Not many MMO's of any flavor can last for long on such a small number of subscribers, yet CCP does exceptionally well, even hiring more developers as we speak. If you want fixes, then you have to let CCP find the resources to develop those fixes, and both Dust and Incarna are the path to finding those resources.

I have to say, I'm astounded that, with the generally high level of intelligence required to play this game, people can't seem to see that both Dust and Incarna are a long-term solution to keeping Eve alive and kicking for many years to come. Were I an investor, I'd see both Incarna and Dust as extremely positive portents for the future of both Eve and CCP. It's so odd that very few people see this, considering how much of the game is based around its market economy.

I'm not being a fanboi defender here, just pointing out that there are considerations to be made that require looking at the long-term outcome of CCP's current development plan.

agreed 100%

Yakia TovilToba
Halliburton Inc.
Posted - 2010.07.18 08:35:00 - [9]
 


Originally by: Janus Nightmare
You do realize that neither Incarna nor Dust is going to affect how you play Eve unless you choose to let it. Nobody has yet stated that you must get out of your pod, physically walk around your ship, inspect it, and repair it yourself. You will never be forced to go out, strip down to your boxers, and dance on a pole in order to attract crew members. Nor is there any reason for you to get involved with PI unless you're an industrialist that really wants to get involved with it.

You also do realize that both Incarna and Dust, especially Dust, opens up CCP to entirely new types of players who may never leave the station/planet and thus will only impact your game with changes to the market (inevitable regardless of Dust or Incarna) but will provide CCP with more money to hire more devs, some of whom will be assigned to fixing bugs within Eve itself.

Incarna and Dust are both potentially large sources of revenue for CCP. Revenue that is needed to hire more devs, QA, designers, etc to both fix and expand Eve itself. How many subscribers does Eve have? 350K? Half a million? It sounds like a lot until you consider the cost of maintaining and continuously expanding a game like Eve. Not many MMO's of any flavor can last for long on such a small number of subscribers, yet CCP does exceptionally well, even hiring more developers as we speak. If you want fixes, then you have to let CCP find the resources to develop those fixes, and both Dust and Incarna are the path to finding those resources.

I have to say, I'm astounded that, with the generally high level of intelligence required to play this game, people can't seem to see that both Dust and Incarna are a long-term solution to keeping Eve alive and kicking for many years to come. Were I an investor, I'd see both Incarna and Dust as extremely positive portents for the future of both Eve and CCP. It's so odd that very few people see this, considering how much of the game is based around its market economy.

I'm not being a fanboi defender here, just pointing out that there are considerations to be made that require looking at the long-term outcome of CCP's current development plan.


1. Investors usually prefer a company doing what they can do best: developing the core game itself, instead of experiments on uncharted waters.

2. The usual console games generate money by 1-time-sales. You put in work, develop a product and receive money by selling the copies. A MMO generates constant money but requires constant development. You can't just stop developing it and expect that it won't die, there are simply too many other MMOs on the market nowadays and players will join those that give them this constant growth and progress. Combined with 1. you might understand why this whole Dust experiment is risky and could leave to the death of Eve (as only a small fraction of devs keep on developing Eve, check this article at massively).

3. Dust/Incarna will not necessarily grow Eve. For Eve players it doesn't make much diffrence, if they pay money to NPC so that something changes on a planet or to console players, as they don't see or participate in the action on the ground.

4. To grow Eve CCP could simply give gamers what they like: add meaningful PVE for example or other things that enrich the space-game. Faction Warfare, Wormholes/T3 were good steps in that direction. The most successful MMOS (in terms of subscribers numbers) are very heavy on PVE and give room to many play-styles (solo-, group-content for PVE/PVP), EVE is based on group PVP mostly .. in my opinion (as someone who played ~15-20 MMOs within the last 8-9 years) that's the fields where the game could really expand.



Peter XZ
Gallente
Posted - 2010.07.18 08:38:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Peter XZ on 18/07/2010 08:39:55
Originally by: Gavjack Bunk
Originally by: Janus Nightmare
with the generally high level of intelligence required to play this game


::spitcoffee::


*sprays-half-chewed-doughnut-and-carrot-juice-all-over-monitor*

Braskyte
Unknowable Elite
Posted - 2010.07.18 08:52:00 - [11]
 

Communication between players and CCP.

Peter XZ
Gallente
Posted - 2010.07.18 08:56:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Braskyte
Communication between players and CCP.


Ibex = Eve Players, yeah I know.

Aelius
Caldari
Mnemonic Enterprises
Dark Matter Coalition
Posted - 2010.07.18 09:03:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Aelius on 18/07/2010 09:10:55
Edited by: Aelius on 18/07/2010 09:05:45

Originally by: Janus Nightmare
You do realize that neither Incarna nor Dust is going to affect how you play Eve unless you choose to let it.


They are already affecting EVE due to the reallocation of dev teams.

Originally by: Janus Nightmare
Nobody has yet stated that you must get out of your pod, physically walk around your ship, inspect it, and repair it yourself. You will never be forced to go out, strip down to your boxers, and dance on a pole in order to attract crew members. Nor is there any reason for you to get involved with PI unless you're an industrialist that really wants to get involved with it.


If both Incarna and Dust 514 are so "do if you want to stuff", why are we, EVE players, "forced" to wait for them to be made, so we can get the "internet spaceships" EVE fixed?!


Originally by: Janus Nightmare
You also do realize that both Incarna and Dust, especially Dust, opens up CCP to entirely new types of players who may never leave the station/planet and thus will only impact your game with changes to the market (inevitable regardless of Dust or Incarna) but will provide CCP with more money to hire more devs, some of whom will be assigned to fixing bugs within Eve itself.

Incarna and Dust are both potentially large sources of revenue for CCP. Revenue that is needed to hire more devs, QA, designers, etc to both fix and expand Eve itself. How many subscribers does Eve have? 350K? Half a million? It sounds like a lot until you consider the cost of maintaining and continuously expanding a game like Eve. Not many MMO's of any flavor can last for long on such a small number of subscribers, yet CCP does exceptionally well, even hiring more developers as we speak. If you want fixes, then you have to let CCP find the resources to develop those fixes, and both Dust and Incarna are the path to finding those resources.


That will may well cost them a lot of current EVE subscribers in the current EVE state (massive chunks of unfinished EVE features). Both things must be properly weighted. CCP is convinced of what u stated, i personally have my doubts.
So that no doubt remains, i would support Incarna and Dust 514 if EVE was taken care of 1st.

Originally by: Janus Nightmare

I have to say, I'm astounded that, with the generally high level of intelligence required to play this game, people can't seem to see that both Dust and Incarna are a long-term solution to keeping Eve alive and kicking for many years to come. Were I an investor, I'd see both Incarna and Dust as extremely positive portents for the future of both Eve and CCP. It's so odd that very few people see this, considering how much of the game is based around its market economy.


Correct. "long-term" solution. What's CCP is doing is NOT long term, it's happening now, all at once, and reallocating almost all EVE dev resources to those two endeavors. I would call that short therm.
Long therm is when you plan carefully, clean up the house first and then push forward.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.07.18 10:29:00 - [14]
 

…also, you do realise that if they were to stop developing Incarna tomorrow, nothing would happen? They'd just rename the project to "WoD testbed" and keep the same amount of devs around in the teams, and instead of getting something from that dev time, we'd get nothing.

Angie McFish
Gallente
Caldari Industrial Capitalist Consortium
Posted - 2010.07.18 10:35:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Janus Nightmare
You do realize that neither Incarna nor Dust is going to affect how you play Eve unless you choose to let it. Nobody has yet stated that you must get out of your pod, physically walk around your ship, inspect it, and repair it yourself. You will never be forced to go out, strip down to your boxers, and dance on a pole in order to attract crew members. Nor is there any reason for you to get involved with PI unless you're an industrialist that really wants to get involved with it.

You also do realize that both Incarna and Dust, especially Dust, opens up CCP to entirely new types of players who may never leave the station/planet and thus will only impact your game with changes to the market (inevitable regardless of Dust or Incarna) but will provide CCP with more money to hire more devs, some of whom will be assigned to fixing bugs within Eve itself.

Incarna and Dust are both potentially large sources of revenue for CCP. Revenue that is needed to hire more devs, QA, designers, etc to both fix and expand Eve itself. How many subscribers does Eve have? 350K? Half a million? It sounds like a lot until you consider the cost of maintaining and continuously expanding a game like Eve. Not many MMO's of any flavor can last for long on such a small number of subscribers, yet CCP does exceptionally well, even hiring more developers as we speak. If you want fixes, then you have to let CCP find the resources to develop those fixes, and both Dust and Incarna are the path to finding those resources.

I have to say, I'm astounded that, with the generally high level of intelligence required to play this game, people can't seem to see that both Dust and Incarna are a long-term solution to keeping Eve alive and kicking for many years to come. Were I an investor, I'd see both Incarna and Dust as extremely positive portents for the future of both Eve and CCP. It's so odd that very few people see this, considering how much of the game is based around its market economy.

I'm not being a fanboi defender here, just pointing out that there are considerations to be made that require looking at the long-term outcome of CCP's current development plan.


+ 1 internets

Sir Rush
Caldari
Sirrush Holdings And Industries Inc.
Posted - 2010.07.18 10:41:00 - [16]
 

You seem to be forgetting that CCP wants EVE to be the 'ultimate sci-fi simulator', not just internet spaceships.

And since they control the spice...

Although I do agree on broken features needing to be fixed first. ;/

Intense Thinker
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.07.18 10:42:00 - [17]
 

I hear DUST gives you cancer Sad

Phosphorus Palladium
Posted - 2010.07.18 10:44:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Janus Nightmare
You do realize that neither Incarna nor Dust is going to affect how you play Eve unless you choose to let it...


Exactly. And that may be the problem.
If a lot of development power is used on something that does not affect the normal eve player, well.. Rolling Eyes

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.07.18 10:47:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Phosphorus Palladium
Originally by: Janus Nightmare
You do realize that neither Incarna nor Dust is going to affect how you play Eve unless you choose to let it...
Exactly. And that may be the problem.
If a lot of development power is used on something that does not affect the normal eve player, well.. Rolling Eyes
Maybe because both are partly separate products that are intended to generate their own income, independent of EVE? If they chose to, they could just cut the ties to EVE completely, and we'd get nothing for the development power spent…

…but it would still be spent, all the same.

Jade Kitana
Posted - 2010.07.18 10:51:00 - [20]
 

What company would waste 3+ years development on two seperate projects to bow to the wishes of a vocal few? Get over it already.

Besides, it will be a good change, and long overdue.


Aelius
Caldari
Mnemonic Enterprises
Dark Matter Coalition
Posted - 2010.07.18 10:55:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Aelius on 18/07/2010 10:56:04
Originally by: Tippia
Maybe because both are partly separate products that are intended to generate their own income, independent of EVE? If they chose to, they could just cut the ties to EVE completely, and we'd get nothing for the development power spent…

If they wanted to they could also shut down EVE tomorrow, or set fire on their newest hardware cluster. It's THEIR game but that doesn't make them right.

Y Berion
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.07.18 10:57:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Janus Nightmare
[...]


Very well put. Although I suppose there is a certain degree of business risk involved in scenario where existing playerbase primarily interested for classic CCP's game about internet spaceships (and nothing else) starts to leave in significant numbers because *that* game is not very well maintained in the meantime until Incarna and Dust are finished and ready to generate profit. It's up to CCP to find a balance: how to keep the majority of old customers happy before new ones are attracted.

Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
Posted - 2010.07.18 11:00:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Janus Nightmare
You do realize that neither Incarna nor Dust is going to affect how you play Eve unless you choose to let it. Nobody has yet stated that you must get out of your pod, physically walk around your ship, inspect it, and repair it yourself. You will never be forced to go out, strip down to your boxers, and dance on a pole in order to attract crew members. Nor is there any reason for you to get involved with PI unless you're an industrialist that really wants to get involved with it.

You also do realize that both Incarna and Dust, especially Dust, opens up CCP to entirely new types of players who may never leave the station/planet and thus will only impact your game with changes to the market (inevitable regardless of Dust or Incarna) but will provide CCP with more money to hire more devs, some of whom will be assigned to fixing bugs within Eve itself.

Incarna and Dust are both potentially large sources of revenue for CCP. Revenue that is needed to hire more devs, QA, designers, etc to both fix and expand Eve itself. How many subscribers does Eve have? 350K? Half a million? It sounds like a lot until you consider the cost of maintaining and continuously expanding a game like Eve. Not many MMO's of any flavor can last for long on such a small number of subscribers, yet CCP does exceptionally well, even hiring more developers as we speak. If you want fixes, then you have to let CCP find the resources to develop those fixes, and both Dust and Incarna are the path to finding those resources.

More money? Even more money? CCP has now 300+ employees, bought the WoD IP, replaced the servers in London and runs another Server together with another company in China.
For what do they need more money? So far Eve-Online the Spaceship Game has paid for all of that.

All that will happen is the following:
We get 3 expansions which focus heavily on Incarna, but fail to deliver more than the 'must haves', but we'll get told that the 'should haves' and 'can haves' will be delivered soon(TM) after.
The backlog then will contain not only all the needed polishing/boosting/nerfing/fixing that's already in there.. no, it will contain the stuff from 3 more expansions.
And what will CCP do? As always.. we'll chase the next thing:
- planetary flight
- system-wide asteroid belts
- ship subsystem targetting
- storefronts
- comet mining
- T3 frigs/BS/modules


Originally by: Janus Nightmare
I have to say, I'm astounded that, with the generally high level of intelligence required to play this game, people can't seem to see that both Dust and Incarna are a long-term solution to keeping Eve alive and kicking for many years to come. Were I an investor, I'd see both Incarna and Dust as extremely positive portents for the future of both Eve and CCP. It's so odd that very few people see this, considering how much of the game is based around its market economy.

I'm not being a fanboi defender here, just pointing out that there are considerations to be made that require looking at the long-term outcome of CCP's current development plan.

I'm here since OCT/05.. I have seen several expansions come and go. But I won't ride on old farts here.. let's go back just 'till Tyrannis and the Planetary Interaction thingy.
I recall that during our testing on Sisi of this feature that there will be a team working on it after release to add all the features which where promised to be 'must haves' and got axed, such as population control, polution of parts of the planet by your factories, trade on the planets - you know, the 'be the ruler, benevolent or tyrannical' thing.
What does this team, assigned to PI actually do now?
It's responsible for the LINK BETWEEN DUST AND PI.
Ha!

So, I hope now you understand a bit from which angle we're going down here on CCP.

Sandy fr
Caldari
101st Space Marine Force
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2010.07.18 11:03:00 - [24]
 

i agree Elvis Presley is not dead

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.07.18 11:04:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Aelius
Originally by: Tippia
Maybe because both are partly separate products that are intended to generate their own income, independent of EVE? If they chose to, they could just cut the ties to EVE completely, and we'd get nothing for the development power spent…

If they wanted to they could also shut down EVE tomorrow, or set fire on their newest hardware cluster. It's THEIR game but that doesn't make them right.
The point is, people are bashing Incarna and Dust under some ill-informed notion that only a few EVE players are interested in those, and that an inordinate amount of resources are poured into trying to please these few. They seem to think that if CCP didn't try to give this subset of EVE players what they want, they could give everyone else what they wanted instead, and that pleasing a majority would be a better choice.

I'm just pointing out that this isn't quite what's happening. The logic is clear, but it rests on the faulty assumption that these are EVE projects: What they're doing at CCP is developing two new games and it just so happens that EVE players will be able to benefit from some of the things being developed there. If the complainers got their wish and the EVE-related developments were diverted elsewhere, it would be diverted to Dust and WoD, not EVE. The only thing that would happen in relation to EVE would be that we get less content, because those two games would still be developed using the same people as now and we wouldn't get to see the corollary benefits of it.

Jade Kitana
Posted - 2010.07.18 11:06:00 - [26]
 

In my talks with fellow players, far more either support it or are interested in seeing how it turns out.

This has gone up a bit from a couple years ago.


Aelius
Caldari
Mnemonic Enterprises
Dark Matter Coalition
Posted - 2010.07.18 11:20:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Aelius on 18/07/2010 11:24:27

Again Tippia, i emphasize that i'm NOT against Incarna and Dust 514. They are, in fact great, addictions to the game. BUT NOT in EVE current state of unfinished features.

It's the "good idea, wrong timing" kind of stuff.
It's like to put a brand new roof on a ruined house.
1st you fix the house structure THEN you put a new roof.

Would you buy a ruined house with a new roof?!
But wait what if CCP adds a jacuzzi bathtub?!
Would u buy it?!
But wait, CCP will add Italian marble to the floor.
It would still be a ruined house...
But well... "it's not proved that quality sells better than new features"

Paeniteo
Vengeance Imperium
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2010.07.18 11:27:00 - [28]
 

I agree. One can only experience complete awareness through eating leftover Chinese food from an unsealed container.

Peter XZ
Gallente
Posted - 2010.07.18 11:31:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Peter XZ on 18/07/2010 11:32:28
Originally by: Aelius
Edited by: Aelius on 18/07/2010 11:24:27

Again Tippia, i emphasize that i'm NOT against Incarna and Dust 514. They are, in fact great, addictions to the game. BUT NOT in EVE current state of unfinished features.



IF I HEAR ANOTHER WORD ABOUT "THERE ARE TOO MANY UNFINISHED FEATURES, NO MORE EXPANSIONS BLAH BLAH BLAH" I'LL YAWN SO HARD I'LL GET A SORE JAW, AND WILL ROLE MY EYES UP SO HIGH I'LL GET SORE EYE SOCKETS!! PLS HAVE PITY ON ME!!

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.07.18 11:32:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Aelius
Again Tippia, i emphasize that i'm NOT against Incarna and Dust 514. They are, in fact great, addictions to the game. BUT NOT in EVE current state of unfinished features.
But that's just it: they're not additions to the game — they're separate games that happen to also provide EVE with benefits.
Quote:
It's like to put a brand new roof on a ruined house.
1st you fix the house structure THEN you put a new roof.
No. It's like building a second house, and while you have the roofers there and can get a great bulk price on tiles, you commission them to spruce up the first house as well. You could wait until the foundation of the first house got fixed, but then you'd have to pay a whole lot more and it wouldn't happen until five years in the future — as it is, you have the resources booked up for a different building project, so why not make use of them?


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