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Mme Pinkerton
The pink win
Posted - 2010.07.07 11:56:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Mme Pinkerton on 07/07/2010 12:04:27

The following proposal is obviously lifted from RL practices but I cannot remember reading something similar on this forum.

Setting:

There are 2 players

Player A: high reputation, lots of idle ISK, doesn't like to take risks, would like to get some return on his capital
Player B: unknown, lacking ISK, wants to do some market speculation

Player B thinks prices for Marauders are going to rise substantially during the next month. Sadly Marauders are rather expensive and he could only afford a small number of them on his own.

Player B asking Player A for a loan is out of question as Player A does not trust Player B to pay it back.

Instead Player A creates a Golem derivative for Player B:

First he looks at the price history and notices that Jita prices for Golems never changed by more than 18% within one month during the last year. In fact, price changes were mostly within the 4-12% bracket.

Player A comes to the conclusion that the price of Golems falling by more than 20% during the next month is extremely unlikely.

t=0
(*) The current price of a Golem is 510m ISK.
(*) Player B deposits 102m ISK with Player A
(*) Player A simultaneously buys one Golem in Jita


t=30

(s1)
(*) Price for Golems has increased to 580m ISK
(*) Player A sells one Golem @ 580m ISK
(*) Player A pays 102m+70m = 172m ISK to Player B

(s2)
(*) Price for Golems has stayed at 510m ISK
(*) Player A sells one Golem @ 510m ISK
(*) Player A pays 102m ISK to Player B

(s3)
(*) Price for Golems has fallen to 450m ISK
(*) Player A sells one Golem @ 450m ISK
(*) Player A pays 102m - 60m = 62m ISK to Player B

(s4)
(*) Price for Golems has fallen to 390m ISK
(*) Player A sells one Golem @ 390m ISK
(*) Player A pays nothing to Player B
(*) Player A takes a 510m - 390m - 102m = 18m ISK loss.


=> Player B can trade with 5x as many Golems as he could on his own
=> Player B is willing to pay Player A a fee for this advantage (I would propose flat fee in outcomes 2-4, percentage based fee in outcome 1).
This has been omitted from the numbers above for the sake of simplicity.
=> Player A only loses money if prices fall lower than the Value at Risk which he determined at t=0 (408m ISK in this example).
Unless something extreme happens (-> s4) he should not be exposed to market risk at all.
=> Player A does not have to trust Player B with a loan (but Player B does have to trust Player A with some ISK).

=> PROFIT Very Happy


edit: you are free to interpret this as my contribution to the "should EBANK engage in risky market speculations?" debate

Wyke Mossari
Gallente
Posted - 2010.07.08 07:37:00 - [2]
 


A bump for an interesting idea. I think to make it work it would need somebody with a reputation beyond reproach who was willing to pick it up.

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2010.07.08 08:09:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Wyke Mossari

A bump for an interesting idea. I think to make it work it would need somebody with a reputation beyond reproach who was willing to pick it up.



As the loud crickets show:

1) Dedicated traders are a minority. Thousands, but still...
2) Of that minority, a meager micro-minority reads the forums.
3) Of that meager micro-minority, a small minority *cares* for advanced finance.
4) Of that small minority of micro-minority, a small subset of them *understands* the concepts and operation of advanced finance.


So, I'd started working on the 4 points above and on why of the 4 points above.

In fact, while 1) is a steep barrier, the other points could be greatly mitigated if the BIG elephant effort (for a game => passtime entertrainment that is) would give birth to something better than a tiny mice.

Imho - and I posted already about it but no fine & inquiring minds got the point:

1) It has to be proven that advanced finance in EvE = better profit than basic trading. Flipping orders is so easy it's bottable, projecting revenue, dealing with liability and leveraged equity is NOT as mindless, therefore people want to DAMN earn good before torturing themselves with the gory details.

2) It has to have an infrastructure. There's a reason why we got banks, clearing houses, brokers and whatsnot. There's a chain of responsibility and guarantees that EvE does not have. You won't spread derivatives by slapping two guys together to buy a ship. One will try to scam the other, the richer guy will naturally try to do the whole deal by himself, with no hassles of dealing with someone else, no trust involved.

3) There has to be a culture, tutorials and whatsnot that explain in street language the dos and don'ts of finance (in primis) and derivatives as second round.

4) There have to be tools to automate or help the whole business at hand. Counting the beans may please the handful of Excel-mates here on MD but to be succesful the phenomenon must leave the sub-sub-sub-sub-sub niche position it got to date.

I might help myself at some of the above points, but my spare time can be counted on the hands of a crippled smurf Mad.

JitaBabe69
Posted - 2010.07.08 08:20:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Mme Pinkerton
The following proposal is obviously lifted from RL practices but I cannot remember reading something similar on this forum.


Oh dear.

I can see it now. All the hard working people of the Eve Online world having their retirement accounts wiped clean by the Goldman Sachs of New Eden.

If this derivative idea launches and becomes popular, entire market sectors are going to be crashing soon.

I for one can't wait for the volatility to begin!! LaughingLaughingLaughing

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2010.07.08 08:48:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: JitaBabe69
Originally by: Mme Pinkerton
The following proposal is obviously lifted from RL practices but I cannot remember reading something similar on this forum.


Oh dear.

I can see it now. All the hard working people of the Eve Online world having their retirement accounts wiped clean by the Goldman Sachs of New Eden.

If this derivative idea launches and becomes popular, entire market sectors are going to be crashing soon.

I for one can't wait for the volatility to begin!! LaughingLaughingLaughing


Derivatives are in use since Ancient Greece and worked well for both the parties involved.
The fact our "civilization" keeps regressing to lower standards and principles has given birth to a subset of securities that are very apt at being turned into poisoned waste.

Once again, it's not the "item" that is expecially good or bad, but the use (and the users) of it that is being made.

Jagid
Viziam
Posted - 2010.07.08 16:10:00 - [6]
 

I agree that this type of trading would be restricted to the few that understand and can afford such risk. Yet, all of us were new to EVE at some point and had to learn all of it's nuances, so I don't see why those who desire to enter into this type of investing can't. In fact, I think it's a great idea to help out the "little guys" while still allowing the giants to make money along the way.

This idea sparks my interest as I attempted to found a new Stock Exchange some time ago but realized the traditional model continually fails on EVE. So perhaps a model based on these types of securities and derivatives would be more successful.



I

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2010.07.08 16:27:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 08/07/2010 16:30:47
Quote:

This idea sparks my interest as I attempted to found a new Stock Exchange some time ago but realized the traditional model continually fails on EVE. So perhaps a model based on these types of securities and derivatives would be more successful.



Once I am back from vacations I'll try do to something. So far I have been halted by some issues:

- It'll cost me several RL work weeks to create and setup stuff. At the same time, the fact I quit my beloved 0.0 corp due to being unable to play enough speaks volumes about how much spare time I got.

- It'll cost me some RL money. With EvE's EULA in the way I can't even ask to be helped at that. The interested parties would be so few anyway that it'd not matter.

- It takes someone with the patience and humbleness and time to write down long tutorials for the less literate. I have neither.

Therefore I might go ahead anyway, but instead of some months I could take some years.


Edit: I forgot more points.

- People would want to have it all and for free.

- In any case, there'd come up the usual stupid issues: people who don't trust to start programs, people who can't launch Notepad without 100 years of priority assistance on site.

- Most of all, derivatives "done well" WILL ALWAYS clash with the issue that people sooner or later would have to trust me (or someone else) with ISK. Thick ISK in this case. The resulting bellyaches would make me pregnant, and I am not even a woman IRL.

Claire Voyant
Posted - 2010.07.08 20:10:00 - [8]
 

One possible problem with this is that true speculators are probably pretty rare in Eve. Possible reasons might be that CCP can change the rules at any moment wiping out your bet. Or that there are plenty of speculation opportunities that don't really require you to leverage your bets (PI being the current example) because the expected return is already so high.

Mini Tee
Posted - 2010.07.09 07:19:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Mini Tee on 09/07/2010 07:22:30
Great concept and I'd love to see this be put in place Embarassed
Looks like the only thing it needs is some really rich player that you can trust and who takes the time and effort to do his risk analysis.

EDIT: A problem I find with this is how easy it is to manipulate prices. And the two parties will have to agree on which price they use as measurement. Simply the ask when buying and bid when selling? Something like a feed which prints a list of recently completed orders might be better, which doesn't exist right now.

Companion Trollin
You are going too fast
Posted - 2010.07.09 07:29:00 - [10]
 

Why the hell would player A do all the work buying and selling golems so someone else can profit?

Mini Tee
Posted - 2010.07.09 07:35:00 - [11]
 

Because his risk is very low, and he can make money off commission.

He doesn't have to make the call what to sell or buy, where price will go, he only has to determine where price probably won't go.

TornSoul
BIG
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2010.07.09 07:41:00 - [12]
 

I think that the main problem is that prices in *general* don't move much over the timeframe of a month (except around expansions).

So to actually make any worthwhile ISK you would need to put in a lot of ISK.

But if you (player B) already got a lot of ISK, you don't need player A (you are in fact a player A by definition)

And those with the business sense to actually spot those opportunities where theres a decent profit to make, will already be a player A type.


Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2010.07.09 10:18:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: TornSoul
I think that the main problem is that prices in *general* don't move much over the timeframe of a month (except around expansions).

So to actually make any worthwhile ISK you would need to put in a lot of ISK.



This has been dealt with in RL, where a security might move by 0.00001 euros and yet it's made profitable.

Once again, there are several obstacles to place a secondary market in EvE but the single real showstopper is in the players not willing (or knowing) to participate. Everything else can be worked around.

Wyke Mossari
Gallente
Posted - 2010.07.09 11:35:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Claire Voyant
One possible problem with this is that true speculators are probably pretty rare in Eve. Possible reasons might be that CCP can change the rules at any moment wiping out your bet. Or that there are plenty of speculation opportunities that don't really require you to leverage your bets (PI being the current example) because the expected return is already so high.


I can't agree with that. If we look at the situation with PI and the number of intermediate items being produced below cost. It is almost a case study for derivatives.

There are so many opportunities to profit, but I'm convinced the liquidity is just not there. I certainly don't have the liquidity to exploit all the profitable opportunities I see and would leap at the opportunity to leverage my investment 10 fold. I suspect that most mid-tier traders are constrained by the same problem. I think one of the main reasons it's taking so long to stabilise is that lack of liquidity to buy out the low ball sell orders.


 

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