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Noh Luciola
Posted - 2010.06.03 08:00:00 - [1]
 

So I recently started a new character as a Minmatar Vherokior Drifter, acquired a set of +3 attribute implants (all except for Charisma) and have queued my "Learning" skills in optimal order with regards to training time (i.e. cybernetics, intelligence, memory, learning... etc); all with enough isk leftover for the next tier skill books once I get "Instant Recall" and "Analytical Mind" to level IV...

Is training Learning skills the best use of my bonus SP period?

This is my second character; I initially trained a Sebestior for a couple weeks but couldn't stand his portrait (yes, vanity, but it bugged me consistently enough such that I didn't want to burn anymore time on him)... additionally at almost 50% of his bonus SP I felt like I hadn't really planned his skills correctly. I'd like to get it right this time around if possible...

I'm interested in flying the Minmatar T2 Assault Frigates Jaguar & Wolf and the Gallente Transport Ships, namely the Viator; a friend of mine who used to play (and who got me interested in Eve to begin with) swore by his Viator for stealthy courier type missions...

I can of course just go by the prereq skills for each ship as well as the core competency skill certificates... but is this the best way to go?

Does the certificate planner give an accurate representation of the skills I should be chasing, particularly in this early stage when I have a limited window to train at a 2x rate?

With planetary interaction right around the corner I'm worried that I'll get yet anoither curve-ball and want to reset again (not really, I think I'll be sticking with this new character); regardless all I can do is make my best guess.

Any advice would be much appreciated!


GavinCapacitor
Posted - 2010.06.03 14:23:00 - [2]
 

Learning skills are a very good use of your 1.6m sp bonus 5/4 is usually the standard.

Obviously you need the pre-req. skills for the ships you want to fly.

Core competency certificates are ok, but the rest are kinda messed up. Also you need to do some research yourself, flying minmatar ships you don't really need cap, so those are less important than others. You need to do the research.

Natalie Caladan
Posted - 2010.06.03 14:47:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Natalie Caladan on 03/06/2010 14:54:48
Originally by: Noh Luciola
So I have queued my "Learning" skills in optimal order with regards to training time. Is training Learning skills the best use of my bonus SP period?

I'm interested in flying the Minmatar T2 Assault Frigates Jaguar & Wolf and the Gallente Transport Ships. Does the certificate planner give an accurate representation of the skills I should be chasing, particularly in this early stage when I have a limited window to train at a 2x rate?

Well ...

Yes learning skills and implants are a good investment to start off with, actually the smartest but most boring way to start the game. I actually did exactly the same as you.

Certificates are a mere indication of what's needed and some skills are actually not that necessary. But yes they're a good guidance.

Perhaps you already noticed but like 90% of the available skills are divided into either perception/willpower skills or intelligence/memory skills (exceptions being navigation, social, trade and drones but they have a limited number of skills). Perception/willpower is mainly for ships and weapons; int/mem is for learning, support skills (electronics, engineering)), industry and science.

Most - if not all - experienced players have (at least) two accounts. Because skilltraining takes a lot of time you can't possibly train everything (takes like 28 years) so specialization is recommended. Usually people go for a combat character or an industrial/trade/science character.

If you want to fly combat ships you need a lot of int/mem support skills, worth roughly half a year of training, while ship and weapon training can take many years. Industrials require a limited number of ship skills (miners and transports) and can train science and industry for years.

Now this Planetary thing is something that belongs to the industry kind of character. Not that you can't cross-train, of course.

The thing is that you have attribute remaps that can boost your skilltraining by a lot. It's a very tricky thing but can be very worthwhile to do.

RaTTuS
BIG
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2010.06.03 15:20:00 - [4]
 

/me sighs,

train the learnings to 4/3 [learning 5 can be done OK]
then cram up the stuff you need to use the ships you want,
follow the certificates
don't do leanings 5/4 - you'll just get board.

you could be well on the way to actually flying a frig with frig 5 by the time you hit 1.6mil SP
and been having fun

Noh Luciola
Posted - 2010.06.03 17:42:00 - [5]
 

For a Minmatar character is cross-training for Gallente transport ship (Viator) during the bonus SP period impractical:

Should I focus instead on my Minmatar frigate and gunnery skills?

I've looked at the prereq skills for the Viator and both "Gallente Industrial V" and "Industry V" seem divergent from the skill set I should be focusing on for Minmatar T2 Assault Frigates. Also, the point was brought up earlier that while Minmatar ships are not cap intensive (from what I've read... I'm still a newbie) Gallente ships are more so... again, will I end up cross-training something impractical during my SP period?

In terms of the core competency certificates... would it be safe to say that these present a relevant path for skills that should be trained regardless of profession and, if so, to what level (basic, standard, advanced etc) should I get my certificates up to?


Noh Luciola
Posted - 2010.06.03 18:00:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Noh Luciola on 03/06/2010 18:06:58
Edited by: Noh Luciola on 03/06/2010 18:03:27
Originally by: GavinCapacitor
Learning skills are a very good use of your 1.6m sp bonus 5/4 is usually the standard.

Obviously you need the pre-req. skills for the ships you want to fly.

Core competency certificates are ok, but the rest are kinda messed up. Also you need to do some research yourself, flying minmatar ships you don't really need cap, so those are less important than others. You need to do the research.


I guess, in a nutshell, what I'm asking is: while it's easy enough to look at Viator & Jaguar and outline the direct skills (and calculate the total SP) needed to pilot these it's harder as a new player to get a grasp of the wider range of necessary support skills for a single type of pilot... let alone two totally different (class and race) types of ships. And then there is the question of which, what and when to train first, last, etc. I'm going with Learning skills at the moment simply because they seem to be the safest bet until I've formed a solid plan of action.

Will the combat support skills for the Jaguar carry over to piloting a Viator (or vice versa, will the industrial skills for the Viator carry over to the Jaguar)?

... and if so, is this an indication that I should use my bonus SP to train the Jaguar (or Viator) first?

Should I look to get all of the immediate necessary skills for piloting either (or both, still need to do the math) of these ships trained up to level V first, then worry about the smaller support skills?

Outside of the immediate prereq skills for each ship all I have really to go by is the "Core Competency" skills listed in certificate planner... and from what I've read folks seem pretty divided on the extent to which the skills outlined in the certificates are actually necessary.

Should I focus on training my Core Competency skills up to a certain level and, if so, how far (i.e. basic, standard, advanced etc)?

Ultimately, I want to waste as little of my bonus SP on impractical skills that won't contribute to my enjoyment of the game, however, outside of guessing the type of ship I'd like to pilot, my experience (and thus perspective) of Eve is admittedly still rather limited.

Ka choop
Posted - 2010.06.03 20:59:00 - [7]
 

Core competency standard is a pretty good certificate to aim for, once you have that you will be able to fly most ships without having to worry too much about fitting requirements, missing that last point of cpu you would have needed or your cap that's just too low.

Noh Luciola
Posted - 2010.06.03 21:39:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Noh Luciola on 03/06/2010 21:41:50
Edited by: Noh Luciola on 03/06/2010 21:40:25
Originally by: RaTTuS
/me sighs,

train the learnings to 4/3 [learning 5 can be done OK]
then cram up the stuff you need to use the ships you want,
follow the certificates
don't do leanings 5/4 - you'll just get board.

you could be well on the way to actually flying a frig with frig 5 by the time you hit 1.6mil SP
and been having fun


What does the 5/4 spread when referring to Learning skills specifically entail... does this mean training up to Learning V and [Advanced Attribute Skill] IV or vice versa?

One thing I forgot to mention is that I still have two remaps available for this character... can attribute points acquired via training be remapped?


suckitdonks
Posted - 2010.06.03 21:51:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Noh Luciola
Edited by: Noh Luciola on 03/06/2010 21:41:50
Edited by: Noh Luciola on 03/06/2010 21:40:25
Originally by: RaTTuS
/me sighs,

train the learnings to 4/3 [learning 5 can be done OK]
then cram up the stuff you need to use the ships you want,
follow the certificates
don't do leanings 5/4 - you'll just get board.

you could be well on the way to actually flying a frig with frig 5 by the time you hit 1.6mil SP
and been having fun


What does the 5/4 spread when referring to Learning skills specifically entail... does this mean training up to Learning V and [Advanced Attribute Skill] IV or vice versa?

One thing I forgot to mention is that I still have two remaps available for this character... can attribute points acquired via training be remapped?




It means Basic Learning skills @ V and Advanced Learning skills @ IV

Noh Luciola
Posted - 2010.06.04 07:06:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Noh Luciola on 04/06/2010 07:22:44
Where can I find the total number of SP required for each skill per level?

I am trying to figure out how much SP it will take total to train up for the Jaguar & Viator respectively and determine what relevant skills (if any) I can fit into the 1.6m bonus SP period...

Is this accessible somehow through the Eve training queue (I can see the cost for each upcoming skill level but I can't find anything listing the SP cost for each level individually) or Evemon?


Xarq
Posted - 2010.06.04 23:58:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Xarq on 04/06/2010 23:58:07
Just get the tier one learning skills to 4 at first - you will not need them to 5 until at least a year into the game imo. (taking them to 5 you will notice very very little difference in shorter training time)

then take the tier 2 learning skills to 4 (these are the ones you get that have a tier 1 learning skills req)

Once you have those there
get Engineering to 5 (for Power grid increase on all ships)
and Electronics to 5 (for CPU on all ships)
Weapon upgrades to 4 at least (for Power grid on all ships)

Then work on Minmatar frig skill. Get it to 5 if you can before the bonus runs out.
If you have any bonus training time left at this point work on all your navigation skills, get those up asap.

**remember once you get close to 1.6 million skill points dont que up any skill that trains for a long time, you will only have your bonus as long as the skill training completes before the 1.6 million mark**

hope this helps,

Xarq

Noh Luciola
Posted - 2010.06.06 00:44:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Xarq
Edited by: Xarq on 04/06/2010 23:58:07
Just get the tier one learning skills to 4 at first - you will not need them to 5 until at least a year into the game imo. (taking them to 5 you will notice very very little difference in shorter training time)

then take the tier 2 learning skills to 4 (these are the ones you get that have a tier 1 learning skills req)

Once you have those there
get Engineering to 5 (for Power grid increase on all ships)
and Electronics to 5 (for CPU on all ships)
Weapon upgrades to 4 at least (for Power grid on all ships)

Then work on Minmatar frig skill. Get it to 5 if you can before the bonus runs out.
If you have any bonus training time left at this point work on all your navigation skills, get those up asap.

**remember once you get close to 1.6 million skill points dont que up any skill that trains for a long time, you will only have your bonus as long as the skill training completes before the 1.6 million mark**

hope this helps,

Xarq



I'm actually asking a question along these lines (although with respect to Evemon specifically) over at the battleclinic.com forums:

http://forum.battleclinic.com/index.php/topic,91759.new.html#new

Is more actual time saved by training the higher level V skills (or skills with a higher x4 "Training Time Multiplier") during the bonus period (as long as they don't extend over the 1.6m limit of course) than by training lower level/multiplier skills?


Backho
Posted - 2010.06.06 03:53:00 - [13]
 

No its just the same.

And dont listen really to what most people say. Engineering and electronics can easily be replaced with modules. What you want is , you really would want to be in a good ship fast. Be it miner, mission runner etc.

For a mission runner plan, 1.6m SP is enough to pilot something like a raven

1) Start with a caldari starter. Get missile launcher operation lv 1 and standard missile lv 1
1) Get learning lv4 , tier 1 stats learning lv 4, tier 2 stats learning lv 3, cybernatics lv 1~3
2) Get Energy operation lv 4, shield operation lv 3, shield management lv 3, energy managent lv 3, tactical shield operation lv 4
3) electronic lv 4 engineering lv 4 isnt bad too if you want.

Now remap everything into perception, and a lil bit in memory OR intelligence OR willpower.
Memory if you plan to power drone skills later
Interlligence for a good all-rounded plan
willpower to power on ship/weapons skills.

Then you just beeline these skills
1) caldari frig 4, cruiser 4,battlecruiser 3 battleship 3
2) Mis operation 5, heavy missile 3, cruise missile 3
3) Weapon upgrades 4
4) Missile support skills lv 2, specially rapid fire.
5) drones 5 Drone support skills lv 3


There you go. it could be done well within 1.6m SP. and the raven would do around 400-500 dps which is more then enough to clear missions quickly.

Shoogie
Caldari
Serious Pixels
Posted - 2010.06.06 18:47:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Noh Luciola
For a Minmatar character is cross-training for Gallente transport ship (Viator) during the bonus SP period impractical:


Transport ships are rather specialized, and I would discourage you from trying to train them during your bonus training period.

If I were you, I would focus on the frigates you want to fly for now: You mentioned the Jaguar. The Jaguar is basically a souped up Rifter with 10x the price tag. Every skill you train for your Rifters will also benefit your future Jaguars. I suggest buying a handful of Rifters and getting out there and having fun. That will give you an idea of what skills you need. Want to fly faster? Train things in the Navigation category: Acceleration Control, Evasive Maneuvering, High Speed Maneuvering, Navigation. Want to do more damage? Train Minmatar Frigate, Small Projectile Turret, and gunnery support skills: Gunnery, Motion Prediction, Rapid Firing, Surgical Strike, Trajectory Analysis. Need more capacitor to keep your shields and MWDs going longer? Train Energy Management and Energy Systems Operation. Would more HPs help you survive more fights? Train Shield Operation, Mechanic, and Hull Upgrades. Speaking of "upgrades" skills: Electronics Upgrades, Energy Grid Upgrades, Shield Upgreades, Weapon Upgrades, and Advanced Weapon Upgrades are all good for helping you fit more modules on your ships (with Electronics and Engineering).

When you find you need to haul stuff from one station to another, train Minmatar Industrial and get a Hoarder or a Mammoth. Train up to be a really good Jaguar pilot for a couple months, and then come back and revisit the idea of getting a Viator.

All four races have a decent Blockade Runner. The Minmatar one is the Prowler. It has an even faster align time than the Viator and a second high slot which can be used for something useful like a probe launcher or a tractor beam. However, it will not be able to fit as much cargo when fit with max cargo expanders. When you decide to train <racial> Industrial 5, that is going to be an approximately 16 day skill. So you should carefully consider which race to get. Amarr Industrial 5 gets you the Impel, the biggest DST. Caldari Industrial 5 gets you the Charon, the biggest freighter. Gallente Industrial 5 gets you the Iteron V, the biggest T1 industrial. Minmatar Industrial 5 gets you the Fenrir, the fastest freighter. Don't worry about chosing right now. You have plenty of time.

As for mixing the above fun and useful skills with learning skills, again that is up to you. Definately get a Rifter fit that you can fly and actually do things with. Then it is up to you. How much deferred gratification can you stand (one more Learning skill means you'll be ahead SPwise in six months or whenever) versus how much fun you want in the short term. (High Speed Maneuvering 3 will let you start using T2 MWDs, for only 17 hours training or so.)

ArsMalus Mortis
Caldari
Guns Rocks and Probes
Reverberation Project
Posted - 2010.06.06 19:19:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: ArsMalus Mortis on 06/06/2010 19:21:02
You seem to want to do a lot of planning for this character and calculating times fitting, requirments, etc. I would suggest checking out EveMon at http://evemon.battleclinic.com/

You can create character plans and map out training paths based on requirements of ships and fittings. It will optimize learning skills and remaps.

Noh Luciola
Posted - 2010.06.06 19:32:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Shoogie
Originally by: Noh Luciola
For a Minmatar character is cross-training for Gallente transport ship (Viator) during the bonus SP period impractical:


Transport ships are rather specialized, and I would discourage you from trying to train them during your bonus training period.

If I were you, I would focus on the frigates you want to fly for now: You mentioned the Jaguar. The Jaguar is basically a souped up Rifter with 10x the price tag. Every skill you train for your Rifters will also benefit your future Jaguars. I suggest buying a handful of Rifters and getting out there and having fun. That will give you an idea of what skills you need. Want to fly faster? Train things in the Navigation category: Acceleration Control, Evasive Maneuvering, High Speed Maneuvering, Navigation. Want to do more damage? Train Minmatar Frigate, Small Projectile Turret, and gunnery support skills: Gunnery, Motion Prediction, Rapid Firing, Surgical Strike, Trajectory Analysis. Need more capacitor to keep your shields and MWDs going longer? Train Energy Management and Energy Systems Operation. Would more HPs help you survive more fights? Train Shield Operation, Mechanic, and Hull Upgrades. Speaking of "upgrades" skills: Electronics Upgrades, Energy Grid Upgrades, Shield Upgreades, Weapon Upgrades, and Advanced Weapon Upgrades are all good for helping you fit more modules on your ships (with Electronics and Engineering).

When you find you need to haul stuff from one station to another, train Minmatar Industrial and get a Hoarder or a Mammoth. Train up to be a really good Jaguar pilot for a couple months, and then come back and revisit the idea of getting a Viator.

All four races have a decent Blockade Runner. The Minmatar one is the Prowler. It has an even faster align time than the Viator and a second high slot which can be used for something useful like a probe launcher or a tractor beam. However, it will not be able to fit as much cargo when fit with max cargo expanders. When you decide to train <racial> Industrial 5, that is going to be an approximately 16 day skill. So you should carefully consider which race to get. Amarr Industrial 5 gets you the Impel, the biggest DST. Caldari Industrial 5 gets you the Charon, the biggest freighter. Gallente Industrial 5 gets you the Iteron V, the biggest T1 industrial. Minmatar Industrial 5 gets you the Fenrir, the fastest freighter. Don't worry about chosing right now. You have plenty of time.

As for mixing the above fun and useful skills with learning skills, again that is up to you. Definately get a Rifter fit that you can fly and actually do things with. Then it is up to you. How much deferred gratification can you stand (one more Learning skill means you'll be ahead SPwise in six months or whenever) versus how much fun you want in the short term. (High Speed Maneuvering 3 will let you start using T2 MWDs, for only 17 hours training or so.)


Thanks much for the detailed advice!

In terms of support skills Evemon lists a set of "Recommended Certificates" for the Jaguar and Viator respectively...

Jaguar:

Core Competency Standard
Passive Shield Tanking Standard
Frigate Advanced Artillery Turrets Standard
High-Velocity Helmsman Standard

Viator:

Core Competency Standard
Armor Tanking Standard

A bunch of the skills you've mentioned fall squarely into these categories with the exception of some of the Gunnery based skills. Should I also look to include Missile/Rocket skill based certificates such as:

Missile Control (Basic, Standard...)
Frigate Launcher Control (Basic, Standard...)
Frigate Advanced Standard Launchers
Frigate Advanced Rocket Launcher

I am focusing on Frigates for the sake of time but is this overly limiting?

Noh Luciola
Posted - 2010.06.06 19:37:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: ArsMalus Mortis
Edited by: ArsMalus Mortis on 06/06/2010 19:21:02
You seem to want to do a lot of planning for this character and calculating times fitting, requirments, etc. I would suggest checking out EveMon at http://evemon.battleclinic.com/

You can create character plans and map out training paths based on requirements of ships and fittings. It will optimize learning skills and remaps.


Way ahead of you - been spending more time on Evemon the last few days than actually in the game... enough to discover also that Evemon's "optimized" training plan comes up short when factoring in the bonus SP period and scheduling neural remaps (requires you to manually reshuffle the plan in order to optimize a remap point)...

Is there any way to post an Evemon (.emp) training schedule on this forum (to solicit feedback)?

ArsMalus Mortis
Caldari
Guns Rocks and Probes
Reverberation Project
Posted - 2010.06.06 19:37:00 - [18]
 

Those recommended certs are just the certs recommended in game. If you view the info of a ship it has recommended certs. Those are still just a loose guide. I would recommend clicking the view BattleClinic Loadouts button and look at some good high ranking fittings and check the required skills. Again this are just guides to help give you an idea of what you want to do.

Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
Posted - 2010.06.06 21:20:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Noh Luciola
When you find you need to haul stuff from one station to another, train Minmatar Industrial and get a Hoarder or a Mammoth. Train up to be a really good Jaguar pilot for a couple months, and then come back and revisit the idea of getting a Viator.

All four races have a decent Blockade Runner. The Minmatar one is the Prowler. It has an even faster align time than the Viator and a second high slot which can be used for something useful like a probe launcher or a tractor beam.


I was wondering when someone was going to mention the Prowler. Honestly the only reason to get a Viator over a Prowler is to get access to the Iteron V along the way.

Anyhow. Carry on. It's not like crosstraining industrials takes that much time anyhow.

Noh Luciola
Posted - 2010.06.06 22:01:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Zhilia Mann
Originally by: Noh Luciola
When you find you need to haul stuff from one station to another, train Minmatar Industrial and get a Hoarder or a Mammoth. Train up to be a really good Jaguar pilot for a couple months, and then come back and revisit the idea of getting a Viator.

All four races have a decent Blockade Runner. The Minmatar one is the Prowler. It has an even faster align time than the Viator and a second high slot which can be used for something useful like a probe launcher or a tractor beam.


I was wondering when someone was going to mention the Prowler. Honestly the only reason to get a Viator over a Prowler is to get access to the Iteron V along the way.

Anyhow. Carry on. It's not like crosstraining industrials takes that much time anyhow.


I've read a few Prowler vs Viator comparisons and it seems to me that the Viator usually wins out... I've read that while the Prowler is faster the Viator is more agile, has higher max warp and can be fit with a cloaking module... also I get the impression that people generally like the "look" of the Viator better (or maybe just don't care for the ergonomics of the Prowler); superficial, granted, but I'd be curious how this plays into peoples reasoning.

Noh Luciola
Posted - 2010.06.07 06:01:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Noh Luciola on 07/06/2010 06:02:24
Edited by: Noh Luciola on 07/06/2010 06:01:50
Okay... so in addition to the support skills/certificates already recommended by Evemon I've merged the additional skills necessary for a few suggested loadouts of the Jaguar and Viator into my Evemon skill plan:

http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/19387-solo-PvP-Jaguar.html

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1331803&page=1

http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/18864-The-CORRECT-way-to-fit-a-Viator-Updated.html

My total training plan is at 148 days (jeez) but since everyone has been telling me all along that the whole thing would take at least 6 months I guess I can't complain.

Which are the most immediately useful skills for me to get into the last 150k or so of my bonus SP?

I have one more tweak of my training plan to do which is to shift a couple sets of lower level skills into the range approaching the 1.6m boundary of the bonus SP period and since I'm going to be running on these skills for quite awhile I'd like to get everyone's opinion as to which skills I should train first (outside of Learning and the Core Competency Basic Certificate skills which are already scheduled)...

Shoogie
Caldari
Serious Pixels
Posted - 2010.06.08 06:24:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Noh Luciola
I've read a few Prowler vs Viator comparisons and it seems to me that the Viator usually wins out... I've read that while the Prowler is faster the Viator is more agile, has higher max warp and can be fit with a cloaking module... also I get the impression that people generally like the "look" of the Viator better (or maybe just don't care for the ergonomics of the Prowler); superficial, granted, but I'd be curious how this plays into peoples reasoning.

Well, I don't know where you read those comparisons, but they are... misleading... Perhaps you were confused about which ships were being compared?

The Prowler has a mass of 10M kg. The Viator has a mass of 11.15 M kg. The Amarr Prorator has a mass of 10.75 M kg. The Caldari Crane has a mass of 11.5 M kg. All four ships have an inertia modifier of 0.55. Therefore, the Prowler is naturally the most agile, followed by the Prorator, the Viator, and the Crane. However, the Prowler and Crane have only two low slots each. The Viator has 3, and the Prorator has 4. If the low slots are filled with nanofibers, then the Prorator and Viator become more agile, at the cost of cargo capacity (from the cargo expanders you could have fit instead.)

All four ships warp at 9 AU /second. All four ships have the ability to fit the Covert Ops Cloaking Device II. This reminds me, be sure you have Cloaking 4 in your skill plan for Blockade Runners, so you can use that cloaking device.

As for the "look" of ships--yes, I think it is important to like how your ship looks. The default camera view is to look at your own ship. You might as well enjoy it. By the way, you know you can see what a ship will look like in game before buying one, right? Type its name in a chat channel. Use the mouse to highlight the name, then right click and autolink item. This will let you show info on the ship. At the bottom right of the picture, is the "Preview" icon. This opens up a window that lets you spin the ship around and see it from all angles.

It does not matter to me which blockade runner you choose. I fly a Crane myself. I just wanted to be sure you considered the Prowler, since cross-training a second race of ships this early in a pilot's career is generally considered sub-optimal.

Originally by: Noh Luciola
In terms of support skills Evemon lists a set of "Recommended Certificates" for the Jaguar and Viator respectively...

Jaguar:
Core Competency Standard
Passive Shield Tanking Standard
Frigate Advanced Artillery Turrets Standard
High-Velocity Helmsman Standard

Viator:
Core Competency Standard
Armor Tanking Standard


I only have two problems with the above suggested certificates. First, nobody ever fits a tank on a Blockade Runner. It is better to fit agility mods like nanofibers and avoid being targetted at all. The Armor Tanking Standard is a good certificate which will be useful on some of your other combat ships-just not the Viator.

Secondly, buried under the prerequisites of Core Competency Standard is Multitasking-which itself requires Targetting 5. The Jaguar has a "Max Locked Targets" stat of 6. So unless you want to fit an Autotargetter or a Signal Amplifier (neither are common modules) then anything above Targetting 4 will not help you. I don't suggest training Targetting 5 until you have a Battleship, Recon, or Logistics Cruiser.

Originally by: Noh Luciola
Should I also look to include Missile/Rocket skill based certificates such as:
Missile Control (Basic, Standard...)
Frigate Launcher Control (Basic, Standard...)
Frigate Advanced Standard Launchers
Frigate Advanced Rocket Launcher

You could get some quick missile skills to add a missile launcher to your fit. (Forget Rockets. They suck. T2 Standards should be low priority-nice to get someday.) However, your Projectile Turrets will be by far your main damage source. It is generally better to be highly skilled in one weapon rather than mediocre in two.

Noh Luciola
Posted - 2010.06.08 22:12:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Shoogie

Well, I don't know where you read those comparisons, but they are... misleading... Perhaps you were confused about which ships were being compared?



Yeah... looking back I'm not sure either. I had a friend who played the game up until this last expansion and swore by his Viator for BR so that was likely it.

Originally by: Shoogie

...the Prowler is naturally the most agile, followed by the Prorator, the Viator, and the Crane. However, the Prowler and Crane have only two low slots each. The Viator has 3, and the Prorator has 4. If the low slots are filled with nanofibers, then the Prorator and Viator become more agile, at the cost of cargo capacity (from the cargo expanders you could have fit instead.)



Do you think the trade off in slots (High for Low) is better given that the base Prowler is already faster and has slightly more cargo space to begin with? I was under the impression that the High slots were generally offensive in nature and thus would be of limited use on a BR.

Originally by: Shoogie

It does not matter to me which blockade runner you choose. I fly a Crane myself. I just wanted to be sure you considered the Prowler, since cross-training a second race of ships this early in a pilot's career is generally considered sub-optimal.



I am considering it pretty seriously now:)

Training wise I don't *think* it'll make a huge difference - Gallante Frigate III instead of Minmatar Frigate III which I already have - as the majority of the requirements have equivalent training times (Gallante Industrial V instead of Minmatar Industrial V) that being said, at this point, every little bit counts.

Originally by: Shoogie

I only have two problems with the above suggested certificates. First, nobody ever fits a tank on a Blockade Runner. It is better to fit agility mods like nanofibers and avoid being targetted at all. The Armor Tanking Standard is a good certificate which will be useful on some of your other combat ships-just not the Viator.



I'd like to be able to pull this certificate off altogether but I'm worried I'll need it for the Jaguar & beyond. My training plan is structured such that I complete all of my Char/Will skills first, remap to Int/Mem to train support skills, then remap to Per/Will to train my piloting skills. This carries with it the risk that if I miss a support skill until after my Per/Will remap it will take longer to catch up (since my Int/Mem will have be lowered in favor of Per/Will). I've been looking for a way to flip this around in Evemon but haven't found a way that doesn't add time to my training schedule.

Is the Jaguar a better shield than armor tank? It seems Prowler favors shields (at least according to the bonuses) but would it be short-sighted of me to pass on the Armor Tanking certificate altogether?

Originally by: Shoogie

Secondly, buried under the prerequisites of Core Competency Standard is Multitasking-which itself requires Targetting 5. The Jaguar has a "Max Locked Targets" stat of 6. So unless you want to fit an Autotargetter or a Signal Amplifier (neither are common modules) then anything above Targetting 4 will not help you. I don't suggest training Targetting 5 until you have a Battleship, Recon, or Logistics Cruiser.



Thanks so much for pointing this out! I've been pretty careful about structuring skills optimally in Evemon but being new to the game it's really hard to catch this level of detail. I will gladly pull Targeting V & Multitasking off my list.

Originally by: Shoogie

You could get some quick missile skills to add a missile launcher to your fit. (Forget Rockets. They suck. T2 Standards should be low priority-nice to get someday.) However, your Projectile Turrets will be by far your main damage source. It is generally better to be highly skilled in one weapon rather than mediocre in two.



I currently have a rocket launch on my PvE fit for my Rifter but I'm guessing that it's a different game then for a PvP T2 Jaguar

X Dressah
Posted - 2010.06.10 17:43:00 - [24]
 

Amarr transport ships are widely regarded as the best transport ships as they have the most low slots. The minmatar stealty one does have 2 high slots which is apparently handy but I can't think why.

In the low slots is where you fit speed and agility mods so that you can get away before getting locked and caught.

By not training Gallente Industrial 5 you miss out on the Iteron 5 which has the largest cargo hold of the Tech 1 Industrials though so it's up to you.

Forget the fixation with certs. The "armor tanking" cert for transports is a good example of a cert thats not optimal for that particular class of ship.

Why are you hell bent on training an assault frigate? They arn't too hot when it comes to PVP. If your gonna be PVPing or missioning why not go for a more traditional route of frigate, cruiser, battlecruiser and then decide if you wanna go for HACS or Battleships.

Noh Luciola
Posted - 2010.06.12 07:48:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: X Dressah
Amarr transport ships are widely regarded as the best transport ships as they have the most low slots. The minmatar stealty one does have 2 high slots which is apparently handy but I can't think why.

In the low slots is where you fit speed and agility mods so that you can get away before getting locked and caught.

By not training Gallente Industrial 5 you miss out on the Iteron 5 which has the largest cargo hold of the Tech 1 Industrials though so it's up to you.



I've been bouncing between the Viator and Prowler for awhile but I was leaning towards the Prowler as it does save me training time (since I've got Minmatar Frigates III already) and I thought the extra high slot might provide for a more unconventional fit. I'm interested more in running transports through low/nullsec as opposed to hauling massive amounts of freight through hisec so losing the Iteron V isn't necessarily a loss... although I'm a newbie so who knows. Skill wise the big investment is training the Racial Industrial skill to V...

Does training for Gallante Industrial V offer more than Minmatar Industrial V or are they both pretty much a balanced wash?

Originally by: X Dressah

Forget the fixation with certs. The "armor tanking" cert for transports is a good example of a cert thats not optimal for that particular class of ship.



I'm going with the certs (less so now than before but still) simply because it's difficult to quantify ahead of time what skills I might need and, at the very least, the certs give me a general means to plan out some kind of longer term training schedule other than the immediate "hey I want/need this so I'll go train it now" approach. Having a means to plan out my training also means I can optimize better (which learning skills when, remaps and what to fit into my bonus 2xSP window). However I do recognize the potential that they might include skills that are not really suitable for the ship so where I can I'm trying to get more experienced players to vet what is or is not essential.

Originally by: X Dressah

Why are you hell bent on training an assault frigate? They arn't too hot when it comes to PVP. If your gonna be PVPing or missioning why not go for a more traditional route of frigate, cruiser, battlecruiser and then decide if you wanna go for HACS or Battleships.


They are on my way to training most other skills I think... and from what I gather they are cheaper to lose. For PvP in other games I've always favored a measure of speed/agility over tanks... not to say it's always worked out well for me but I've definitely found it to be more exciting overall:) Also given the relatively massive amount of territory/content in Eve (compared to other games) I want something small I scout with but which won't get crushed (right away) in a fight. Lastly, as a complement to flying a T2 transport I thought having a AF to scout routes might be useful.

Is there a better ship for this kind of thing than an AF (or the Jaguar in particular)?




 

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