| Author |
Topic |
King Gore
Imperial Shipment |
Posted - 2010.05.31 03:46:00 - [ 1]
Edited by: King Gore on 31/05/2010 04:10:03
Edited by: King Gore on 31/05/2010 03:47:16
TO those who think you need umpteen million SP to 'pvp' need to HTFU.
Seriously, it isn't that bad. I shouldn't even have to say that. One problem I see with some (key word, mostly new players) EvE players is they think bigger is always better. Hardly true. I'm not going to make some long winded speech about these types of players. Why? Because we don't play the same. I can see where they come from, but their expectations are set way too high.
Roll an alt, skill up to 800k sp and tinker around in lo/no sec anonymously in a thrasher. Learn how to pick targets. Learn how to D-scan and the d-scan ranges. Dictate range in a fight, etc. If nothing this will at LEAST allow you to better defend/equip yourselves against Wardecs/canflippers.
TL;DR - Some people just need to learn that EvE PvP isn't OMG world ending.
EDIT: Clarified the title a bit, not wanting to confuse people and start some lengthy debate about expansions and the like.
EDIT 2: Fail spelling. |
Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
|
Posted - 2010.05.31 04:04:00 - [ 2]
Just for fun the other day I decided to figure out how long it would take me to skill up a fairly competent Vagabond pilot from scratch- All requisite support skills at 4 or 5 (if 5 is required) and able to fully T2 fit a Vagabond with Warrior IIs, 220mm ACs, T2 shield tank, best named MWD and T2 point etc.
The result: Just over 125 days if you skilled up Cybernetics 4 and plugged in some +4s plus juggled your attributes to maximize the training speed. That's ONLY FOUR MONTHS from zero to a very competitive PVP package using the Vagabond, which is an amazingly well rounded and flexible PVP platform.
Remember that included in this training package are all the usual support skills like gunnery support, engineering support skills (capacitor etc.) as well as the core skills required to fit and fly the ship. Learning and advanced learning skills are also included in this training package. It would take considerably less time to train for the ship/fit if one already had the basics of learning skills and support skills trained up.
The whole "it would take too long to be competitive" argument just doesn't fly. |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Gallente
Sigma Special Tactics Group
|
Posted - 2010.05.31 04:09:00 - [ 3]
Edited by: Herzog Wolfhammer on 31/05/2010 04:14:10The OP is actually correct. His points are proven in practice. I think that the notion of needing a lot of SP to PVP is detrimental to the game, for during that time that players are waiting to skill up, they get hooked on the ISK pump aspect of the game. The "bigger is better" notion is also a failure in this game. I too used to think that bigger was better and in my noob days I lost a lot of cruisers and battle cruisers when I should have stayed in frigates and handled my skill point selections better. Sometimes I wonder if it would be a service for the more experienced players to hang out in the noob systems and form noob fleets, and go straight to low sec. Sure it's a slaughter, potentially, but when they (noobs) are done and they realize they didn't crap themselves, pass out, and then die, from PVP, they realize it's not all that bad.  Quote:
Just for fun the other day I decided to figure out how long it would take me to skill up a fairly competent Vagabond pilot from scratch- All requisite support skills at 4 or 5 (if 5 is required) and able to fully T2 fit a Vagabond with Warrior IIs, 220mm ACs, T2 shield tank, best named MWD and T2 point etc. The result: Just over 125 days if you skilled up Cybernetics 4 and plugged in some +4s plus juggled your attributes to maximize the training speed. That's ONLY FOUR MONTHS from zero to a very competitive PVP package using the Vagabond, which is an amazingly well rounded and flexible PVP platform. Remember that included in this training package are all the usual support skills like gunnery support, engineering support skills (capacitor etc.) as well as the core skills required to fit and fly the ship. Learning and advanced learning skills are also included in this training package. It would take considerably less time to train for the ship/fit if one already had the basics of learning skills and support skills trained up. The whole "it would take too long to be competitive" argument just doesn't fly.
This is interesting and perhaps the certificate system, though I personally don't have a use for it, is usable to this end that Eternus points out. Maybe, instead of just blindly skilling for a specialty like "shield tanker" or "Gunner", we should assemble profiles of fully fit ships, such as the Vaga, and others, and then list the exact skills that a player must train in to reach that particular ship with that particular fit for that specific goal. Knowing full well that there are games where people will go through the same dungeon 100 times just to get a compete "armor set" (yeah, WOW, OK?), I don't think it would be difficult to show a long term goal (specific ship with ideal fit for a specific goal) and then outline the skills in sequence needed to train for it in the shortest time. |
Goose99 |
Posted - 2010.05.31 04:10:00 - [ 4]
Edited by: Goose99 on 31/05/2010 04:14:59 Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Just for fun the other day I decided to figure out how long it would take me to skill up a fairly competent Vagabond pilot from scratch- All requisite support skills at 4 or 5 (if 5 is required) and able to fully T2 fit a Vagabond with Warrior IIs, 220mm ACs, T2 shield tank, best named MWD and T2 point etc.
The result: Just over 125 days if you skilled up Cybernetics 4 and plugged in some +4s plus juggled your attributes to maximize the training speed. That's ONLY FOUR MONTHS from zero to a very competitive PVP package using the Vagabond, which is an amazingly well rounded and flexible PVP platform.
Remember that included in this training package are all the usual support skills like gunnery support, engineering support skills (capacitor etc.) as well as the core skills required to fit and fly the ship. Learning and advanced learning skills are also included in this training package. It would take considerably less time to train for the ship/fit if one already had the basics of learning skills and support skills trained up.
The whole "it would take too long to be competitive" argument just doesn't fly.
You also need another pve specced toon to pay for pvp. Or do you think insurance rate for t2 ships has it covered? Originally by: Herzog Wolfhammer
The OP is actually correct. His points are proven in practice.
I think that the notion of needing a lot of SP to PVP is detrimental to the game, for during that time that players are waiting to skill up, they get hooked on the ISK pump aspect of the game.
The "bigger is better" notion is also a failure in this game. I too used to think that bigger was better and in my noob days I lost a lot of cruisers and battle cruisers when I should have stayed in frigates and handled my skill point selections better.
Sometimes I wonder if it would be a service for the more experienced players to hang out in the noob systems and form noob fleets, and go straight to low sec. Sure it's a slaughter, potentially, but when they (noobs) are done and they realize they didn't crap themselves, pass out, and then die, from PVP, they realize it's not all that bad.
They would choose not to buy a subscription after trial runs out. Which is just fine. CCP's profits are their concern. Fewer mission runners = fewer isk faucet = deflation = cheaper deadspace mods and higher end items. |
King Gore
Imperial Shipment |
Posted - 2010.05.31 04:14:00 - [ 5]
Originally by: Herzog Wolfhammer
Sometimes I wonder if it would be a service for the more experienced players to hang out in the noob systems and form noob fleets, and go straight to low sec. Sure it's a slaughter, potentially, but when they (noobs) are done and they realize they didn't crap themselves, pass out, and then die, from PVP, they realize it's not all that bad.
+1 |
Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
|
Posted - 2010.05.31 04:24:00 - [ 6]
Originally by: Goose99
You also need another pve specced toon to pay for pvp. Or do you think insurance rate for t2 ships has it covered?
Absolutely not. *You* may need a second account to 'pay for PVP' but I don't. And neither do a lot of other players that are far more expert at this game than you seem to be. I pay for my PVP with PVP. I'm a pirate. I kill people and take their stuff. Of course, I maintain a kill ratio upwards of 50:1 to do it, so you may not be able to achieve that, but your blanket statement is totally incorrect. |
robbyx |
Posted - 2010.05.31 04:30:00 - [ 7]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Just for fun the other day I decided to figure out how long it would take me to skill up a fairly competent Vagabond pilot from scratch- All requisite support skills at 4 or 5 (if 5 is required) and able to fully T2 fit a Vagabond with Warrior IIs, 220mm ACs, T2 shield tank, best named MWD and T2 point etc.
The result: Just over 125 days if you skilled up Cybernetics 4 and plugged in some +4s plus juggled your attributes to maximize the training speed. That's ONLY FOUR MONTHS from zero to a very competitive PVP package using the Vagabond, which is an amazingly well rounded and flexible PVP platform.
Remember that included in this training package are all the usual support skills like gunnery support, engineering support skills (capacitor etc.) as well as the core skills required to fit and fly the ship. Learning and advanced learning skills are also included in this training package. It would take considerably less time to train for the ship/fit if one already had the basics of learning skills and support skills trained up.
The whole "it would take too long to be competitive" argument just doesn't fly.
Completely irrelevant, from a new players point of view...what you are talking about there is around 200 mil ISK, not counting the +4 implants...so the player grinds the skills and ISK, goes pvping, has a blast and eventually loses his Vaga...back to square one with no ISK. For new players this game is about nothing but grinding ISK...dont forget the number one rule "dont fly what you cant afford to lose". Lose a mission ship here and there and it becomes a perpetual cycle of running missions or mining...thats where they get stuck, bored and quit. |
King Gore
Imperial Shipment |
Posted - 2010.05.31 04:35:00 - [ 8]
Edited by: King Gore on 31/05/2010 04:35:22 Originally by: robbyx
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Stuff
Completely irrelevant, from a new players point of view...what you are talking about there is around 200 mil ISK, not counting the +4 implants...so the player grinds the skills and ISK, goes pvping, has a blast and eventually loses his Vaga...back to square one with no ISK.
For new players this game is about nothing but grinding ISK...dont forget the number one rule "dont fly what you cant afford to lose".
Lose a mission ship here and there and it becomes a perpetual cycle of running missions or mining...thats where they get stuck, bored and quit.
QFT |
Qolde
Minmatar
the united
Negative Ten. |
Posted - 2010.05.31 04:40:00 - [ 9]
Originally by: robbyx
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Truth
Completely irrelevant, from a new players point of view...what you are talking about there is around 200 mil ISK, not counting the +4 implants...so the player grinds the skills and ISK, goes pvping, has a blast and eventually loses his Vaga...back to square one with no ISK.
For new players this game is about nothing but grinding ISK...dont forget the number one rule "dont fly what you cant afford to lose".
Lose a mission ship here and there and it becomes a perpetual cycle of running missions or mining...thats where they get stuck, bored and quit.
Spot on. |
Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
|
Posted - 2010.05.31 04:42:00 - [ 10]
Originally by: robbyx
Completely irrelevant, from a new players point of view...what you are talking about there is around 200 mil ISK, not counting the +4 implants...so the player grinds the skills and ISK, goes pvping, has a blast and eventually loses his Vaga...back to square one with no ISK.
For new players this game is about nothing but grinding ISK...dont forget the number one rule "dont fly what you cant afford to lose".
Lose a mission ship here and there and it becomes a perpetual cycle of running missions or mining...thats where they get stuck, bored and quit.
Again, a totally broken and dysfunctional view of the situation. You're completely missing my point. Perhaps you're being obtuse on purpose? Or maybe it's not on purpose, which is even more pathetic. Many players whine and complain about how 'they'll never catch up' and 'I can't PVP because it's too much effort to compete skill wise with all the older (time in game wise) players'. That's total crap, as my example perfectly illustrates. Secondly, even if I were to hand a perfectly skilled character to a new player they wouldn't be able to do anything of use with it anyway PVP-wise. Succeeding in PVP is about the player, not the character. So those who say it's impossible to compete are simply making excuses for their failures. Third, I was noting what *could* be accomplished. It's not a requirement to get a full set of +4s. +3s do nearly as well for a fraction of the cost. And +2s are basically free at this point. The ISK required for the skillbooks is around 76m. Is this a lot for a new player? Sure. But being a new player wasn't the point of the exercise. I was simply trying to calculate the fastest practical time to go from zero to a competitive character for a known working PVP setup. I could change the target setup to be much cheaper: a T2 fit Rupture for instance, and it would still be relevant. |
Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
|
Posted - 2010.05.31 04:46:00 - [ 11]
Wait wat? When did the skills you need for pvp not work for pve? If you can fly a vaga then you can get in a hurricane just as easily and spam level 3 missions for decent isk. At least it should be more than enough isk off a few hours missioning a week to replace the odd vaga loss or to fit a bunch of insured pvp ruptures or canes. Add some level 4 bs skills to the mix and then you can do level 4 missions and really start pulling in the isk. |
King Gore
Imperial Shipment |
Posted - 2010.05.31 04:47:00 - [ 12]
Edited by: King Gore on 31/05/2010 04:49:04 Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Originally by: robbyx
Completely irrelevant, from a new players point of view...what you are talking about there is around 200 mil ISK, not counting the +4 implants...so the player grinds the skills and ISK, goes pvping, has a blast and eventually loses his Vaga...back to square one with no ISK.
For new players this game is about nothing but grinding ISK...dont forget the number one rule "dont fly what you cant afford to lose".
Lose a mission ship here and there and it becomes a perpetual cycle of running missions or mining...thats where they get stuck, bored and quit.
Again, a totally broken and dysfunctional view of the situation. You're completely missing my point. Perhaps you're being obtuse on purpose? Or maybe it's not on purpose, which is even more pathetic.
Many players whine and complain about how 'they'll never catch up' and 'I can't PVP because it's too much effort to compete skill wise with all the older (time in game wise) players'. That's total crap, as my example perfectly illustrates.
Secondly, even if I were to hand a perfectly skilled character to a new player they wouldn't be able to do anything of use with it anyway PVP-wise. Succeeding in PVP is about the player, not the character. So those who say it's impossible to compete are simply making excuses for their failures.
Third, I was noting what *could* be accomplished. It's not a requirement to get a full set of +4s. +3s do nearly as well for a fraction of the cost. And +2s are basically free at this point. The ISK required for the skillbooks is around 76m. Is this a lot for a new player? Sure. But being a new player wasn't the point of the exercise. I was simply trying to calculate the fastest practical time to go from zero to a competitive character for a known working PVP setup. I could change the target setup to be much cheaper: a T2 fit Rupture for instance, and it would still be relevant.
It's not so much what you were saying was wrong, but is impractical for a new player. Its time verse practice really. What you explained is something down the line. Of course setting a direct path for a Vagabond would result is a disgruntled noob and a dead Vagabond. Unfortunately this is where T1 insurance came in (way to go CCP). I know insurance for a Vagabond isn't great, but you could nearly freely fly in a Stabber while skilling for a Vagabond. And, as some one said, you could easily fly a Hurricane for income. Lo sec missions ftw. |
Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
|
Posted - 2010.05.31 04:51:00 - [ 13]
Originally by: King Gore
It's not so much what you were saying was wrong, but is impractical for a new player. Its a time verse practice. What you explained is something down the line. Of course setting a direct path for a Vagabond would result is a disgruntled noob and a dead Vagabond.
Unfortunately this is where T1 insurance came in (way to go CCP).
You do realise that training right for a fully t2 fit vaga means that you can also competantly fly the rest of the minmatar t1 cruiser and battlecruiser lineup? So why would they always fly the vaga or if they lost it why can't they just break out the mission cane and fit up some ruptures or something to tide themselves over with cheap pvp ships? |
King Gore
Imperial Shipment |
Posted - 2010.05.31 04:54:00 - [ 14]
|
Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
|
Posted - 2010.05.31 05:02:00 - [ 15]
|
King Gore
Imperial Shipment |
Posted - 2010.05.31 05:09:00 - [ 16]
|
M'ktakh |
Posted - 2010.05.31 05:20:00 - [ 17]
Edited by: M''ktakh on 31/05/2010 05:55:03
Okay, I'll bite.
Bellum: Four months and 400M ISk are nothing to you, because you have played this game for years. For someone who has just started EVE, four months are an eternity, and 400M is a fortune of legends.
Yes, yes, you are in EVE for the long haul and all that, but how many fresh out of the box players _begin_ their game by setting realistic, long-term goals? New players need to feel that they at least can do something besides watch SP accumulate and grind for ISK, and setting a (from their example) very expensive ship as a goal wont acomplish that. A Rifter/Thrasher/Kestrel on the other hand....
Tell me, have you, on your very first character, started this game with the notion of training for X high-end ship from day one?
(Also, remove learning skills, CCP, they suck) |
robbyx |
Posted - 2010.05.31 05:28:00 - [ 18]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Originally by: robbyx
Completely irrelevant, from a new players point of view...what you are talking about there is around 200 mil ISK, not counting the +4 implants...so the player grinds the skills and ISK, goes pvping, has a blast and eventually loses his Vaga...back to square one with no ISK.
For new players this game is about nothing but grinding ISK...dont forget the number one rule "dont fly what you cant afford to lose".
Lose a mission ship here and there and it becomes a perpetual cycle of running missions or mining...thats where they get stuck, bored and quit.
Again, a totally broken and dysfunctional view of the situation. You're completely missing my point. Perhaps you're being obtuse on purpose? Or maybe it's not on purpose, which is even more pathetic.
Many players whine and complain about how 'they'll never catch up' and 'I can't PVP because it's too much effort to compete skill wise with all the older (time in game wise) players'. That's total crap, as my example perfectly illustrates.
Secondly, even if I were to hand a perfectly skilled character to a new player they wouldn't be able to do anything of use with it anyway PVP-wise. Succeeding in PVP is about the player, not the character. So those who say it's impossible to compete are simply making excuses for their failures.
Third, I was noting what *could* be accomplished. It's not a requirement to get a full set of +4s. +3s do nearly as well for a fraction of the cost. And +2s are basically free at this point. The ISK required for the skillbooks is around 76m. Is this a lot for a new player? Sure. But being a new player wasn't the point of the exercise. I was simply trying to calculate the fastest practical time to go from zero to a competitive character for a known working PVP setup. I could change the target setup to be much cheaper: a T2 fit Rupture for instance, and it would still be relevant.
No in fact i didnt miss your point, i chose to ignore it because you just wanted to act the big man with your big skill plan and completely ignore the fact the OP was aiming at newer players...to which your post was and is completely irrelavent. |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Gallente
Sigma Special Tactics Group
|
Posted - 2010.05.31 05:53:00 - [ 19]
I was kind of hoping this thread would open the door to a concept where the certificate path is used towards a goal that comprises a target ship and fit based on the activity it is for. PVP ships, ISK vacuum mining ships, exploration, etc.
But people just want to bicker and argue about who kills who.
How many people wait way to long to get somewhere in this game because their goals are unclear?
And then, after having reached their intangible goals - like after thinking they need 20M SP to PVP, and actually getting that, still don't know what to do - become bored and quit?
Is CCP interested in that?
And nobody is just going to log in and skill straight to the Vaga, pointed out in the example. There are plenty of missions to run and ISK to earn in the meantime to pay for it all.
Oh well. |
Sader Rykane
Amarr
The Dark Space Initiative
Revival Of The Talocan Empire |
Posted - 2010.05.31 05:53:00 - [ 20]
Originally by: King Gore
Edited by: King Gore on 31/05/2010 04:10:03
Edited by: King Gore on 31/05/2010 03:47:16
TO those who think you need umpteen million SP to 'pvp' need to HTFU.
Seriously, it isn't that bad. I shouldn't even have to say that. One problem I see with some (key word, mostly new players) EvE players is they think bigger is always better. Hardly true. I'm not going to make some long winded speech about these types of players. Why? Because we don't play the same. I can see where they come from, but their expectations are set way too high.
Roll an alt, skill up to 800k sp and tinker around in lo/no sec anonymously in a thrasher. Learn how to pick targets. Learn how to D-scan and the d-scan ranges. Dictate range in a fight, etc. If nothing this will at LEAST allow you to better defend/equip yourselves against Wardecs/canflippers.
TL;DR - Some people just need to learn that EvE PvP isn't OMG world ending.
EDIT: Clarified the title a bit, not wanting to confuse people and start some lengthy debate about expansions and the like.
EDIT 2: Fail spelling.
See here lies the problem, you're telling people to pvp in ships that cost nothing so that when it gets blown up you don't lose much. Why the hell would I do that? Whats the point? If I wanted risk free PvP i'de go play Modern Warfare, CS, Quake 3, or any other twitch based FPS, atleast in those games the PvP is based more on skill than numbers. Eve PvP isn't fun unless you're putting something on the line. Which is why I PvP so rarely, I don't find killing with cheap ships to be fun, and I don't feel like refitting a cheap ship over and over. It's boring and its a waste of time, there's no thrill in losing an arbitrator. |
Darthion Illys
Amarr
Tyrans d'Or
Tyrans d'0r |
Posted - 2010.05.31 06:20:00 - [ 21]
Edited by: Darthion Illys on 31/05/2010 06:24:21
Edited by: Darthion Illys on 31/05/2010 06:21:35
I'm a new guy to Eve. Been playing for what... 3½ months now?
When I was reading through all the guides and information I could find in regards to the game, I had decided I wanted to play a pirate.
That was, before I had finished downloading the client, and actually went in-game.
First impression:
"I'm 6 years too late. There's no point in trying to get into this."
3½ months later, I still kind of feel the same way.
Now... I quickly gave up trying to pirate. Because I had -no- SP. I didn't know what SP to get. I didn't know anything, at all, about how to properly fit a ship. I didn't know what the modules did, what modules were good, which ones were bad, the ones that were currently popular... well, you get the picture. And most importantly: I didn't have any isk, nor did I have the slightest clue of how to get the isk.
First, I was presented with two options:
1. Missioning (Lvl 4 missions, being the really profiteable ones, had a steep SP requirement and even then, was recommended to do in pairs. Out of my league)
2. Mining (Everyone kept telling me that it was a MUST to fly a Hulk to do it. Steep SP requirement to do what's probably the most boring profession in all of Eve)
So I turned to trading.
Trading is nice. You can do it with little to no SP. It's also quite fast to learn. Uses basic principles.
Result:
I got 10+ bil ISK today. Which is quite an achievement (IMHO)... but I still feel the same way about PvP as I did 3½ months ago.
I don't know anything about fittings. I have no experience. I barely know the names of all ships. Much less their weaknesses or strengths. My only perception of what lowsec/nullsec is like is limited by my brain's imagination. When seeing others SP, and all the neat Level 5 skills they have, it makes me vomit when comparing to my own character sheet.
And I don't feel I have a lot of time left.
Lots of people are talking about "the end game" taking place. Can I know for sure that Eve will even exist 7 years from now?
They talk about making SP training plans for years to come. How do I know, as a new player, that the Eve population hasn't halfed by then?
This is the type of stuff that makes me impatient to wait for SP. And the fact those who already have the SP, and thereby shoot their guns 25% faster than me, for 25% more damage, with 25% better accuracy, and can fit five times cheaper T2 equipment on much better T2 ships... and on top of that, have years of PvP experience on me, totally ruins my confidence that even if I did do my damndest to catch up... I would still get violated like grown men do when they drop the soap in prison showers.
So why even bother?
Nah. I'll probably stick to my carebear, endlessly boring trading... where I earn isk I won't ever use, but at least the playingfield appears to be a bit more even. |
Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
|
Posted - 2010.05.31 06:28:00 - [ 22]
Originally by: Darthion Illys
<snipped for space>
It's disappointing for me to read what you have to say, if only because I think that you will be missing out on some great fun (it's fun for me at least, but may not be for you, I don't know for sure) PVPing. If you are interested in PVP at all, contact me in game and I will try to answer any and all questions you may have about PVP- what ships, what setups, what tactics etc. The main factor in being successful in PVP isn't the ship or the character, it's the player. A very long while ago I was pirating with a trial account just to see what I could get out of it- PVPing with an absolute minimum of SP just for the challenge of it. I did quite well because even though I had very little SP, I knew how to fit a ship well and I was experienced in combat so I was able to fly what little I had very well (if I do say so myself). So again, I feel like you're selling the game and yourself a little short. Contact me if you're interested and I'll try to help you as much as I can. |
Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
|
Posted - 2010.05.31 06:31:00 - [ 23]
Originally by: Darthion Illys
Trading is nice. You can do it with little to no SP. It's also quite fast to learn. Uses basic principles.
Result:
I got 10+ bil ISK today. Which is quite an achievement (IMHO)... but I still feel the same way about PvP as I did 3½ months ago.
I don't know anything about fittings. I have no experience. I barely know the names of all ships. Much less their weaknesses or strengths. My only perception of what lowsec/nullsec is like is limited by my brain's imagination. When seeing others SP, and all the neat Level 5 skills they have, it makes me vomit when comparing to my own character sheet.
All the sp in the game world would not do you a bit of good then if you have no idea how to fit a ship or how to use it or the capabilitys of your oppenents ships. All that will happen when you get your sp and a nice shiney t2 ship with t2 fittings is to provide a comedy killmail for a 3½ month old in a t1 cruiser who 'gets' pvp. Stick to trading mate and when you feel you have enough sp then enroll in eve university and they will guide you to the type of structured pvp you want to do.  |
Ran Khanon
Amarr
Swords Horses and Heavy Metal
|
Posted - 2010.05.31 06:36:00 - [ 24]
Originally by: Herzog Wolfhammer
I think that the notion of needing a lot of SP to PVP is detrimental to the game, for during that time that players are waiting to skill up, they get hooked on the ISK pump aspect of the game.
This is very true. At least it applied to me as I skilled for BS and Marauders as soon as possible. I can recommend every new player to jump into factional warfare corporation for a while as soon as possible though. Just fly along with the blob in t1 frigs or cruisers, get your first kills and losses and learn a ton about pvp in the meantime. All game aspects are covered in the tutorials bar pvp. That tutorial everyone has to shape for him/herself. |
Darthion Illys
Amarr
Tyrans d'Or
Tyrans d'0r |
Posted - 2010.05.31 06:42:00 - [ 25]
Yup. I'm currently waiting on some PvP classes to get started.
I've been told over and over by several different players that it's not about the SP, the ISK or the fittings (so much). That it really comes down to player skill and experience.
But the thing is... you have to get the player skill and experience from somewhere as well. A lot of players make it out to be that old players and new players are really PvP'ing on the same terms. Which they're not.
I know 100 times more, than I did during my first week of playing. Eve is that big. And the more you know, the better you'll fare. In this game, knowledge truly is power. And experience is part of obtaining that knowledge.
And that's one thing that more people should be aware of when they try too shoot down the perception which many newbies righteously have in that PvP is an almost impossible undertaking.
I don't know myself what CCP can or should(?) do to somehow alter this perception amongst newbies. But it's a fact that to a newbie, PvP just isn't very inviting.
My 2 cents. |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Gallente
Sigma Special Tactics Group
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Posted - 2010.05.31 06:48:00 - [ 26]
Another thing worth mentioning is Red Versus Blue. These are two corps constantly at war with each other.
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
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Posted - 2010.05.31 07:06:00 - [ 27]
Originally by: Herzog Wolfhammer
I was kind of hoping this thread would open the door to a concept where the certificate path is used towards a goal that comprises a target ship and fit based on the activity it is for. PVP ships, ISK vacuum mining ships, exploration, etc.
But people just want to bicker and argue about who kills who.
How many people wait way to long to get somewhere in this game because their goals are unclear?
And then, after having reached their intangible goals - like after thinking they need 20M SP to PVP, and actually getting that, still don't know what to do - become bored and quit?
Is CCP interested in that?
And nobody is just going to log in and skill straight to the Vaga, pointed out in the example. There are plenty of missions to run and ISK to earn in the meantime to pay for it all.
Oh well.
Herzog- I really think your idea has merit and would be more than happy to continue discussing it. I also feel that it's something that would really add to the game: certificates and/or skill planning sets for ship setups/combinations that are REALISTIC and actually WORK and count for something. I'd even go so far as to suggest corp/alliance defined skill plans that could be traded in-game much as ship fits can be today. An easy drag/drop interface that would add all the skill timelines and skill changes to the in-game calender for ease of use/reference to the new players. Additionally I think it would be great if new players were shown the concept of a multi-tiered/stepped skill plan that would allow them to focus on a long term goal (Vaga for instance) but also show them how they can effectively fit a less expensive ship (time/SP and ISK wise) in the mean time to use while they focus on their long term goal (like a Rupture for instance). I think that CCP would have more customer retention if they built the concept of skill plans etc. into the new player introduction etc. and demonstrated to new players the value of skill certs with respect to being able to fly particular ships well. But this needs to be coupled with skill plans for ships and ship fits that are actually effective for the contemporary game/PVP environment. |
Ishquar Teh'Sainte
Euphoria Released
Merciless. |
Posted - 2010.05.31 07:11:00 - [ 28]
Originally by: Herzog Wolfhammer
Another thing worth mentioning is Red Versus Blue. These are two corps constantly at war with each other.
yeah .. but hardly a place to "learn" PvP. i tried it .. and it was hardly "newbie"-friendly .. low-SP players - ok, inexperienced ones - not so much. guidance is non-existent. |
Dave Hourai
Gallente
The Scope
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Posted - 2010.05.31 07:14:00 - [ 29]
Edited by: Dave Hourai on 31/05/2010 07:16:27I was going to quote someone raging about the Vaga post and how "irrelevant" it was and have a rebuttal to that in this space but suffice it to say: I could change the target setup to be much cheaper: a T2 fit Rupture for instance, and it would still be relevant.You didn't read this sentence, so shut the **** up. It has nothing to do with new or not, just that the SP required is not high at all. Read up on some pvp manuals and YouTube videos (avoiding 0.0 lagfest crap) and happy hunting. This leads me to the real quote spam/post. Originally by: Darthion Illys
I've been told over and over by several different players that it's not about the SP, the ISK or the fittings (so much). That it really comes down to player skill and experience.
But the thing is... you have to get the player skill and experience from somewhere as well. A lot of players make it out to be that old players and new players are really PvP'ing on the same terms. Which they're not.
I know 100 times more, than I did during my first week of playing. Eve is that big. And the more you know, the better you'll fare. In this game, knowledge truly is power. And experience is part of obtaining that knowledge.
And that's one thing that more people should be aware of when they try too shoot down the perception which many newbies righteously have in that PvP is an almost impossible undertaking.
I don't know myself what CCP can or should(?) do to somehow alter this perception amongst newbies. But it's a fact that to a newbie, PvP just isn't very inviting.
My 2 cents.
As far as the inviting part, its inviting when you're winning, lol. Listen, I get SO many people coming to where we live to try out PVPing its insane, and SOMETIMES, we even fleet with them and show them how pvp works(if they show potential, they may be interested in piracy). At least I do, lol. The BIGGEST piece of advice I can give is this: learn the most basic tackling skills, and focus only on tackling, dont even fit guns, just a speed mod (AB or MWD) and the points or webs. Join a small pvp roaming fleet and you tackle that target as HARD as you can whether you die or not. The first few times you just may (read: probably will) lose that ship but if you only had 2-3 T1 mods on a frig or destroyer, who cares? After the action, have the leader (FC) explain to you what everyone else was doing. Learn the ship classes and abilities through reading their Info; as you said knowledge is power and KNOWING what to expect from the majority of ships can be incredibly key. The only thing you need to remember about missioning is the damage types each race is weak against/deal. Mining is only what minerals are moving where. PVP is hundreds of ships, but of course there are ships used more often (BC's cruisers) of which there are few variations with fewer actually good fits you may come up against. As for the rest of the well thought-out post, you're correct,there needs to be better introduction to PVP from the get-go. With as brutal as this universe is you'd think there would be more relevant information more readily available about the biggest allure of EVE to begin with: its PVP. I'm with Bellum here: you need ANY information you contact us; we may be the bile* of the black skies but behind the keyboard we're people who were noobs once too. More importantly, if you never learn to PVP, that's one less target ;D *for some reason that edited out scu_m :P |
Ekrid
Amarr
Imperial Academy |
Posted - 2010.05.31 07:44:00 - [ 30]
Originally by: King Gore
Edited by: King Gore on 31/05/2010 04:10:03
Edited by: King Gore on 31/05/2010 03:47:16
TO those who think you need umpteen million SP to 'pvp' need to HTFU.
Seriously, it isn't that bad. I shouldn't even have to say that. One problem I see with some (key word, mostly new players) EvE players is they think bigger is always better. Hardly true. I'm not going to make some long winded speech about these types of players. Why? Because we don't play the same. I can see where they come from, but their expectations are set way too high.
Roll an alt, skill up to 800k sp and tinker around in lo/no sec anonymously in a thrasher. Learn how to pick targets. Learn how to D-scan and the d-scan ranges. Dictate range in a fight, etc. If nothing this will at LEAST allow you to better defend/equip yourselves against Wardecs/canflippers.
TL;DR - Some people just need to learn that EvE PvP isn't OMG world ending.
EDIT: Clarified the title a bit, not wanting to confuse people and start some lengthy debate about expansions and the like.
EDIT 2: Fail spelling.
Translation: THis is a thinly veiled plot to get newbies into lowsec so I can pod them because eEve has finally gotten stale with carebears staying away from lowsec and everyone else in 0.0, and I'm bored out of my skull. I hear ya buddy, but killing low SP players is a cheap thrill that dies just as quick. |
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