Posted - 2010.04.30 15:39:00 - [211]

 

Edited by: Sturmwolke on 30/04/2010 15:43:55

Originally by: Tonto Auri

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Hours? It took me 30 minutes.

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Congratulations, you're a genius, as demostrated from many of your previous posts in this thread.
I must therefore humbly bow out, I am unable to compete with geniuses.

Originally by: Tonto Auri

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Plural "Buttons". ONE button at left is enough, no need to confirm every action that will be AGAIN confirmed afterward. Especially if there's additional checks imposed (CPU/PG/destination can't accept source).

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Your post #205 gave me a small clue, what Jongo Fett wrote in essence is correct, which essentially mean grouping all of the same extractors under one "Survey for deposits" control to minimize all that stupid individual clicking.

So either you're confusing "Submit" with some other menus or you're not coveying the correct idea to CCP to change the wording for "Submit" to "Finish Edit" to eliminate confusion.

P.S If anyone from CCP is reading this, please change "Submit" to something that's has a more explicit meaning like "Finish Edit".
Sorry I cba to edit my original post to include this as a bullet

/grammar

Posted - 2010.04.30 16:03:00 - [213]

 

Originally by: Sturmwolke

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Originally by: Tonto Auri

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Plural "Buttons". ONE button at left is enough, no need to confirm every action that will be AGAIN confirmed afterward. Especially if there's additional checks imposed (CPU/PG/destination can't accept source).

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Your post #205 gave me a small clue, what Jongo Fett wrote in essence is correct, which essentially mean grouping all of the same extractors under one "Survey for deposits" control to minimize all that stupid individual clicking.

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Correct in sense of obsence... well, that's a joke.
Let me explain it properly.
Right now, once colony is established, workflow is this:
Select extractor -> Survey for deposits -> Choose deposit -> Tell it that you actually sure you choosed a deposit to extract -> Select extractor -> Survey for deposits -> Choose deposit -> Tell it that you actually sure you choosed a deposit to extract -> Select extractor -> Survey for deposits -> Choose deposit -> Tell it that you actually sure you choosed a deposit to extract -> Select extractor -> Survey for deposits -> Choose deposit -> Tell it that you actually sure you choosed a deposit to extract -> Tell it that you are totally sure you did it all right and want to proceed with extraction.

I suggest to change it to looks the way:
Select extractor -> Survey for deposits -> Choose deposit -> Select extractor -> Survey for deposits -> Choose deposit -> Select extractor -> Survey for deposits -> Choose deposit -> Select extractor -> Survey for deposits -> Choose deposit -> Select extractor -> Survey for deposits -> Choose deposit -> Tell it that you actually done with surveying and want to start extraction.

About 24% less clicking.

This is more clear?

Posted - 2010.04.30 17:38:00 - [215]

 

Will the original cost of buildings you decomission be reimbursed? If not, every time you move extractors (and likely storage facility, basic production facilities, and the rest of chain you have placed nearby for efficiency) to follow the changing resources map caused by depleted resources you will get charged again. Hardly beneficial to enterprising planetary tyrants.

I suggest an On/Offline options for buildings as well, in which buildings in an Offline state stop functioning and lose any Links but don't consume any CPU/Powergrid. Offlined buildings can then be moved (perhaps for a small fee and a delay in being able to Online again depending on the distance you move them) or placed into some kind of storage.

Posted - 2010.04.30 18:35:00 - [217]

 

Edited by: Hammering Hank on 30/04/2010 19:14:15

Originally by: Space Wanderer

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Edited by: Space Wanderer on 29/04/2010 13:52:08
Some feedback:

1) The maximum CPU of the command center seems too high given the current structures requirements. While the command centers outputs more CPU than power (I tested that on advanced command centers which are what most non-fulltime industrialist might want to use), the only structures that need more CPU than power with the current setup are the high-tech processors and the landing pads. But currently I can't see any reason to keep more than one landing pad, and also the high-tech processors require so much powergrid backbone to produce the input materials, that it's a bit senseless to keep so many of them that would end up to saturate the CPU.

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I see I am no the only one running out of powergrid way before CPU with advanced and elite PCCs. Seems that Basic and Limited PCC are more balanced. In order to have High Tech system, you need at least 16 extractors and basic processor at 800 grid each and 6 advanced processor at 600 grid each. That is a total of (16 X 800) + (6 X 600) = 16,400 grid in order to feed the High Tech. With an Elite PCC, this leaves about 3000 grid for the High Tech, planetary links, and a space port.

The CPU in this setup is (16 X 100) + (6 X 300) = 3400. With an Elite PCC, this leaves about 25,000 CPU for the High Tech, planetary links, and space port.

Are my number way off, or my setup all wrong? (Is this troll bait?)

(T)Hank(s)

Posted - 2010.04.30 20:11:00 - [219]

 

Originally by: Avoida

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Originally by: HammeringHank

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I see I am no the only one running out of powergrid way before CPU with advanced and elite PCCs. Seems that Basic and Limited PCC are more balanced. In order to have High Tech system, you need at least 16 extractors and basic processor at 800 grid each and 6 advanced processor at 600 grid each. That is a total of (16 X 800) + (6 X 600) = 16,400 grid in order to feed the High Tech. With an Elite PCC, this leaves about 3000 grid for the High Tech, planetary links, and a space port.

The CPU in this setup is (16 X 100) + (6 X 300) = 3400. With an Elite PCC, this leaves about 25,000 CPU for the High Tech, planetary links, and space port.

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Try NOT doing it all on one planet.

p.s. You'll only need a spaceport for the planet to which you are importing materials.

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With only 6 planets, using one for only High Tech is not economical.

Where do the rockets go after launch. I have three in space somewhere but can't find them. The space port is a reliable export channel, and is not the limiting factor.

(T)Hank(s)

Posted - 2010.04.30 20:40:00 - [221]

 

Originally by: Avoida

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As for being economical..are you attempting to do this in Empire? If so, that's probably why you're needing so many extractors. 0.0 with its far higher material concentrations might reduce your extractor needs. Also think about it this way..it just might be designed so that you can't do everything yourself and must recruit the assistance of others. Perhaps do this on a corporate level..spread the load.

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It still seems not very cost-efficient to export Stage1 (reprocessed raw) materials.

Posted - 2010.04.30 21:28:00 - [223]

 

Originally by: Avoida

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Edited by: Avoida on 30/04/2010 20:26:51

Originally by: Hammering Hank

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With only 6 planets, using one for only High Tech is not economical.

Where do the rockets go after launch. I have three in space somewhere but can't find them. The space port is a reliable export channel, and is not the limiting factor.

(T)Hank(s)

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If you use the Command Center to launch materials off-planet, you will get a bookmark notification in your Journal under the Planetary Interaction tab. That bookmark is good for 5 days. Note that the cargo container that appears at that bookmark will NOT be physically present until you initiate warp to that location.

As for being economical..are you attempting to do this in Empire? If so, that's probably why you're needing so many extractors. 0.0 with its far higher material concentrations might reduce your extractor needs. Also think about it this way..it just might be designed so that you can't do everything yourself and must recruit the assistance of others. Perhaps do this on a corporate level..spread the load.

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Originally by: Hammering Hank

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That is a total of (16 X 800) + (6 X 600) = 16,400 grid in order to feed the High Tech. With an Elite PCC, this leaves about 3000 grid for the High Tech, planetary links, and a space port.

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Here is the break down of those number. 8 extractors connected to 8 basic processors, a 1 to 1 relationship producing 1 level refined items (oxygen, water, etc.). The 8 basic processors paired to 4 advanced process, a 2 to 1 relationship producing 2 level items (coolant, electrolytes, etc.). The 4 advanced process paired to 2 more advanced processors, another 2 to 1 relationship producing 3rd level items (superconductors, etc.). This is not accounting for the schematics that require 3 inputs for a single output.

An advanced and elite PCC should be able to manage this type of network. The CPU capacity can easily as this takes up 1/8 of the CPU capacity, but the powergrid can't as this setup takes 5/6 of its grid capacity and planetary links are not yet added. The powergrid is too small for the 24 links needed, but the CPU has more than enough room to spare. This is unbalanced.

(T)Hank(s)

Posted - 2010.04.30 21:47:00 - [225]

 

Ok, after last night I couldn’t log to PI anymore, too much clicking.

I thought about ideas to improve the current system, and it turns out that it is possible to reduce the clicking from 30 minutes of clicks to 10-20 seconds! It might need a big change in the system, but it is definitely worth it, so please consider it.


1- Let the player create “extracting fields”:

Instead of the current system, the player drops X extractors, a storage and processor, selects them all and creates a field. Then all these modules are automatically linked and routed logically.
If the player wishes to route the raw materials to a far away storage/processor then he creates a field only from the extractors, then links it to the desired installation.


2- Remove unnecessary clicks.

E.g. Survey button on extractors and the 10 seconds wait. The Player should automatically instantly get the list .

-Routing is 90% of the time unnecessary; it should be done only from storages with more than 1 product.

-Importing to planets is too complex, make it simple 4 steps:
Open ship cargo
Open orbital cargo
Drag items
Click “send” button, Done!


3- Make all the single-optioned selections automated!

“Aqueous liquids” can only be processed into water.
"Water" and "reactive metals" linked to an advanced processor can only produce "water-cooled CPU".

Therefore, a field with 10 “Aqueous liquids extractor”, a storage and basic industry facility should automatically configure itself to produce water.

Advanced processors should automatically select the schematics based on the inputs.
If only one product is linked then the player should get a drop down only with the possible products from the ingredient linked.


4- Make a window similar to advanced industry facility
Schematics are complex and the player can't memorize them, a window with full schematic solves this.

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example of how to build a colony that produces "Super computers":

Ingredients: “water-cooled CPU” + “coolant” – which will be imported.

1- The player puts down X number of "base metals extractors" in proper location.
2- Insert "storage facility" nearby.
3 Insert "basic industry facility"
** 4- select the area containing the previous modules > click a new button with the function "create field".
Extractors are automatically linked and routed to storage, storage is automatically linked/routed to processor, and processor automatically selects “reactive metals” schematic.
5- The player then clicks one extractor, and is instantly promoted to choose the time to depletion he wants for that field.
6- Repeat steps 2-5 for "aqueous liquids".
7- Player inserts 2x "advanced industry facility"
8- Player links the two "basic industry facility" to one "advanced industry facility".
*** "advanced industry facility" automatically selects the schematic for "water-cooled CPU"
9- Player imports “coolants” to planet through space port.
10- link space port to either storage or directly to the 2nd "advanced industry facility".
11- Link First "advanced industry facility" to the 2nd.
*** Process of manufacturing “supercomputers” will automatically start.
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***Bonus: “Field Command Centre”: A very neat solution!

Areas and modules are different categories, therefore it might be technically difficult to link them, the solution lies in creating a new module, “Field Command Centre”, which is then linked as desired. This module can be a solution to many difficulties.
The player can use this module to select cycle times, access the storage facility and industry processors.
I strongly believe that it’s one of the best things you can do in PI and simplifies a lot of tedious processes, but it’s not there yet so I will continue the post without it.

Now this is important for me!
I spent a lot time and a effort to make this post, if there are devs reading this then please let us know. if it's not even read then its a complete waste of time and effort.

Posted - 2010.04.30 22:40:00 - [227]

 

Originally by: Hammering Hank

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Here is the break down of those number. 8 extractors connected to 8 basic processors, a 1 to 1 relationship producing 1 level refined items (oxygen, water, etc.). The 8 basic processors paired to 4 advanced process, a 2 to 1 relationship producing 2 level items (coolant, electrolytes, etc.). The 4 advanced process paired to 2 more advanced processors, another 2 to 1 relationship producing 3rd level items (superconductors, etc.). This is not accounting for the schematics that require 3 inputs for a single output.

An advanced and elite PCC should be able to manage this type of network. The CPU capacity can easily as this takes up 1/8 of the CPU capacity, but the powergrid can't as this setup takes 5/6 of its grid capacity and planetary links are not yet added. The powergrid is too small for the 24 links needed, but the CPU has more than enough room to spare. This is unbalanced.

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Originally by: Hammering Hank

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Here is the break down of those number. 8 extractors connected to 8 basic processors, a 1 to 1 relationship producing 1 level refined items (oxygen, water, etc.). The 8 basic processors paired to 4 advanced process, a 2 to 1 relationship producing 2 level items (coolant, electrolytes, etc.). The 4 advanced process paired to 2 more advanced processors, another 2 to 1 relationship producing 3rd level items (superconductors, etc.). This is not accounting for the schematics that require 3 inputs for a single output.

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No wonder you're having problems. 1 extractor per 1 processor?? Think man..think. 1 processor needs no more and no less than 6,000 units every 30 minutes to keep churning out it's 20 unit output. That is your first goal..get 6,000 units into that extractor every 30 minutes for maximum efficiency. Yes, in 0.0 you can sometimes get extraction rates that high by choosing the least overall efficient extraction rate (high extraction amount, lowest materials present), but the resource depletes in 2 cycles and so you'll waste time having to resurvey and rather quickly find you need to decommission and reposition those extractors as the material distribution migrates.

Utilizing the 24 hour depletion timeframe in 0.0 means you can, on average, have 4 extractors feeding 1 basic processor and after those 24 hours you'll have 940 units of your tier 1 output. You'd expect to get 48 processing cycles every 24 hours, but remember you don't actually produce your first tier 1 output until 1 hour after starting..so you only get 47 processor cycles.

Posted - 2010.04.30 23:35:00 - [229]

 

Originally by: Hammering Hank

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You make my point even better than I can, so thanks for the help. With the powergrid limitations of Advanced and Elite PCC's, there is no way to optimize production without running out of powergrid while trying to utilize the CPU capacity. The system is unbalanced.

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No. It's not unbalanced as it wasn't designed so that you can do everything on a single planet. Like so much in EVE, you have to accept tradeoffs. Accept it and adapt your configurations.

Posted - 2010.05.01 03:09:00 - [231]

 

Originally by: Avoida

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Originally by: Hammering Hank

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You make my point even better than I can, so thanks for the help. With the powergrid limitations of Advanced and Elite PCC's, there is no way to optimize production without running out of powergrid while trying to utilize the CPU capacity. The system is unbalanced.

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No. It's not unbalanced as it wasn't designed so that you can do everything on a single planet. Like so much in EVE, you have to accept tradeoffs. Accept it and adapt your configurations.

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Please help my ignorance. Please provide a setup that uses the powergrid and CPU of Advanced and Elite PCCs to their full availabilities.

(T)Hank(s)

Posted - 2010.05.01 07:24:00 - [233]

 

Originally by: Azmarel Whosayar

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This would also bring a balance to what you see on planets and will reduce the number of "Mining Colonies" where the raw material is just shipped straight offworld.

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The customs tax alone does that, no need to add unnecessary game mechanics that will nerf other things at the same time, such as probably making the basic and standard ones unusable entirely.

*******************************************

I find it funny that we have 8 pages of what amounts to people complaining about the number of clicks involved in PI without much feedback at all regarding the fact that this is a one-way flow of isk into the ether from your wallet. To reuse an example I posted on before based on numbers alone, Nanite Paste is as far from being a viable candidate for PI as you could hope for.

The production of Nanite Paste requires only third tier reaction of planet goo but is still not going to allow you to break even if only your time is a cost, let alone all of the structure and customs costs. The minimum number of planets you would need to run is five, though the mix on those five is up to you as some things can be extracted across several of the planet types. To test the theory that the current balance of PI is unbelievably far out of whack, I set up a *simple* 24 hour reaction and extraction chain to see just how much Nanite Paste I could expect to produce in a day without spending my time and isk every thirty minutes setting up new PINs.

Firstly, I needed a decent Barren Planet on which I could extract the ingredients for the second tier production chain that nets Biocells and Nanites. In addition to that planet I would require a Gas Planet which would turn out another second tier production chain of Oxides. Yet again I need another planet, this time a Lava Planet that will provide me with basic reactions of Silicon and Plasmoids to ship offworld for use in further reactions. That's all, right? Nope, not done yet, gotta get some more reactions in there. How about we add a nice frigid Ice Planet to the mix to pump out some second tier reactions for Supertensile Plastics? Finally done eh? Not quite, we're still missing something... The all elusive Temperate Planet on which I could extract some Autotrophs since they appear to be unique to Temperates. Then there was the minor necessity of second tier reacting some of the stuff from the other planets after hauling it over to get Microfiber Shielding and Super Conductors. At long last I was to the point that I could do my third tier reactions for Data Chips and Gel-Matrix Biopaste.

And the end result of all of that setting up and transport and figuring out what was needed to begin with? 11 Nanite Paste! I had just wasted a bit over 24 hours to produce what amounts to killing a battlecruiser NPC in the same 0.0 space in which I had been testing. Having not run missions in quite some time I do not know for sure how to equate the two but I would expect a single level 1 mission would come close in isk value and would surpass PI in an isk/hour comparison.

Granted this was only a first attempt and the extraction ratios/reaction setup could be tweaked a bit but even with a 100% gain I'd still be making laughable amounts of isk with an expenditure of SEVERAL Million isk in construction and transport taxation and a net loss at all times.

CCP, You have serious balance issues to look at and a very short while to do it in if you plan to keep your current release schedule. It might be time to sort your stuff before you release a predominately useless patch.

Posted - 2010.05.01 09:25:00 - [235]

 

Edited by: Shin Dari on 01/05/2010 09:25:24

Originally by: Avoida

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Originally by: Hammering Hank

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You make my point even better than I can, so thanks for the help. With the powergrid limitations of Advanced and Elite PCC's, there is no way to optimize production without running out of powergrid while trying to utilize the CPU capacity. The system is unbalanced.

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No. It's not unbalanced as it wasn't designed so that you can do everything on a single planet. Like so much in EVE, you have to accept tradeoffs. Accept it and adapt your configurations.

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Nobody sane will export raw materials. I expect that some people will export refined materials, but most will export basic products.
And in those setups you will run out of PG way before CPU.

Posted - 2010.05.01 10:30:00 - [237]

 

Edited by: Lister829 on 01/05/2010 11:15:51
There was a problem accessing X-BV98 II

This is a real probem now, because I spent 4 mil for facilities that I cannot use. And this is still tying up one of the six planets "I control".

The last time I was able to access this planet, I lost my internet and was dc'd while in planet mode. Could this have caused the planet to now be inaccessible?

Posted - 2010.05.01 11:17:00 - [239]

 

There was a problem accessing Pera I - Main assembly planet.
There was a problem accessing Pera IV - The critical source of two required materials in production chain.

I could go with one locked planet, problematic, but not unbeatable, with two locked out, I just can't do anything...
CCP? Halp?