| Author |
Topic |
Gabriel Lang |
Posted - 2010.04.09 02:02:00 - [ 1]
Basically eve consists of a ****load of ships with tiny issues that means they dont actually see active play. I really dont get what the big problem about adjusting all these subpar ships a tiny bit to boost them to a level where they are able to compete, this doesnt have to be that big even. Reduce mass on one ship, increase base resistances by 5% on another, add a single slot to some of them...
I know people like to think this would open up a huge can of potencial worms. But if CCP actually had the cahoonies to adjust on a patch to patch basis it really shouldnt be impossible to get 70 or 80% of the ships in this game to a level where theyre worth using. And it wouldnt get any worce then it is today, yeah maybe people would stop flying a couple of the current ships in favor of the newly boosted ones but if you can put 10 more ships in to active play by loosing one or two, then really. What are you waiting for?! |
Hobonator912
Gallente
Dark Nexxus
|
Posted - 2010.04.09 02:06:00 - [ 2]
Then day old newbies would be able to hop in and solo lvl 4 missions, provided with standings...? |
Gabrielle Lamb |
Posted - 2010.04.09 02:40:00 - [ 3]
What the heck are you talking about? Im not saying all ships should be just as good but all ships should be worth using. Having a game where atleast 50% of the ships dont see active play is not a good thing. |
Elapidae |
Posted - 2010.04.09 02:46:00 - [ 4]
Getting rid of the tier system would be a nice start. |
Liang Nuren |
Posted - 2010.04.09 02:53:00 - [ 5]
 Originally by: Elapidae
Getting rid of the tier system would be a nice start.
This. The best argument I've heard for not doing this has always been that it would involve changes to build costs for a lot of ships - which would artificially "create" a lot of minerals as breachers were refined at the same refine rate as rifters. Then again, I've always said "I don't care...". -Liang |
Jin Nib
Resplendent Knives |
Posted - 2010.04.09 02:54:00 - [ 6]
Edited by: Jin Nib on 09/04/2010 02:55:37 Originally by: Elapidae
Getting rid of the tier system would be a nice start.
Yup, anything smacking of 'level progression' should be dealt with immediate and violent action. It invariably leads to bad game design and is inherently unbalancing. Edit: OP and OP's alt names gave me a WTF moment regarding the portraits.  |
Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
|
Posted - 2010.04.09 03:23:00 - [ 7]
Edited by: Zeba on 09/04/2010 03:23:54 Originally by: Elapidae
Getting rid of the tier system would be a nice start.
Word. Give each ship in a class a solid well defined role it is supposed to perform and be damned with 'oh you have x racial ship skill trained to 3 so why bother with anything not tier 3' that is the current way of things. I would provide examples of said ships but I can't be arsed to type for the next half an hour to list them all.  I should add that this mostly effects the frigate and cruiser class as the rest all have fairly usable ships in all tier levels. |
Florio
Miniature Giant Space Hamsters
|
Posted - 2010.04.09 04:16:00 - [ 8]
Agreed. They should be competitive / have their niche for high sp players too (eg. imicus drone range bonus is meaningless for high sp players given targeting range of ship). |
Admiral Pelleon
White Shadow Imperium
|
Posted - 2010.04.09 04:22:00 - [ 9]
Just boost my phantasm to be like the cynabal  |
Liang Nuren |
Posted - 2010.04.09 04:46:00 - [ 10]
Originally by: Admiral Pelleon
Just boost my phantasm to be like the cynabal
IMO: -1 high +1 low +1 turret +Lost Shields  -Liang |
Stuart Price
Caldari
FLA5HY RED
The Defenders of Pen Island |
Posted - 2010.04.09 05:37:00 - [ 11]
|
Admiral Pelleon
White Shadow Imperium
|
Posted - 2010.04.09 05:45:00 - [ 12]
All of that + 10m3 bandwidth so it can field a useful number of drones... mmm 550+ dps at 22km, plus better align time and faster speed...  Also, IIRC the phantasm is down one slot to the other faction cruisers, so we could gain a low without having to lose a utility high. With 4 turrets, single utility high, 4th low, and shield/PG boost it'd be a real beast. |
Aamrr |
Posted - 2010.04.09 06:30:00 - [ 13]
IMO, don't change the phantasm's highslot or turret layouts. There's a very thematic pattern going on with the Sansha ship progresion:
Succubus: 2 turrets, 4 high. +100% damage role bonus
Phantasm: 3 turrets, 5 high. +100% damage role bonus
Nightmare: 4 turrets, 6 high. +100% damage role bonus
Every sansha ship has two utility high slots, and gains an effective turret as it goes up in ship class. As a phantasm pilot myself, I think that's a very nice pattern. What the phantasm really needs, however, is an extra low slot and more speed. I can't even catch up to the battlecruisers in my L3 missions! The nightmare is an unusually agile battleship. Why not the phantasm?! |
Admiral Pelleon
White Shadow Imperium
|
Posted - 2010.04.09 06:47:00 - [ 14]
Frankly in order to make up for the lack of DPS compared to the cynabal we need more than one more damage mod. I wouldn't mind if they just mildly boosted the speed and increased DPS/EHP where it has a clear advantage over the cynabal, but to leave it doing less dps, HALF the speed, and having PG issues to fit the utility highs is just not acceptable.
I'd be happy with this:
+10m3 drone bandwidth
+low slot
+shield
+PG to fit utility highs
+100 or so scan res
+100 or so cargo
+50m/s or so base speed
adjust agility/mass to reduce non-mwd align time by 1-1.5s
I'd ideally see this:
+1 turret hardpoint
+low slot
+shield
+PG to fit utility highs and new gun
+100 or so scan res
+100 or so cargo
+50m/s or so base speed
adjust agility/mass to reduce non-mwd align time by 1-1.5s
This would move DPS over the cynabal, while still letting the cynabal have a 1km/s speed advantage with less cap issues. |
Madmi CEO |
Posted - 2010.04.09 10:57:00 - [ 15]
What would removing the tier system help?
Take for example someone with Amarr Battleship level 4. Is that person more or less inclined to use an Armageddon, an Apocalypse or an Abaddon? The thing is - it depends. Tier system or not, people would still pick the ship that is right for the job. Very few people stop any skill training at level 3 - it's almost always level 4 or 5, except for the intermediary stages that last for a few days at the most.
Armageddon doesn't become any less viable with Amarr Battleship at level 5. On the contrary.
What about Gallente ships? Do people who get Battleship level 3 or 4 automatically stop using their Dominix? Hardly.
Honestly, I only ever think about the tiers in ships when I have to pay for them. |
Shaemell Buttleson |
Posted - 2010.04.09 11:11:00 - [ 16]
|
Furb Killer
Gallente |
Posted - 2010.04.09 11:14:00 - [ 17]
Without insurance you had a point, however in principle every BS (and other) hull has same price, 0 isk. So they got different bonuses, which is all nice and fine. However the higher base amounts of hp (and number of slots) make the higher tier ships often better. In the BS department it isnt that bad, for smaller ships the difference is too large, rendering the tier 1 ships useless.
I dont think insurance changes will be sufficient to correct this, so the difference between tiers need to be decreased or removed. |
Max Hardcase
The Scope
|
Posted - 2010.04.09 12:31:00 - [ 18]
Edited by: Max Hardcase on 09/04/2010 12:38:17 Originally by: Madmi CEO
What would removing the tier system help?
Take for example someone with Amarr Battleship level 4. Is that person more or less inclined to use an Armageddon, an Apocalypse or an Abaddon? The thing is - it depends. Tier system or not, people would still pick the ship that is right for the job. Very few people stop any skill training at level 3 - it's almost always level 4 or 5, except for the intermediary stages that last for a few days at the most.
Armageddon doesn't become any less viable with Amarr Battleship at level 5. On the contrary.
What about Gallente ships? Do people who get Battleship level 3 or 4 automatically stop using their Dominix? Hardly.
Honestly, I only ever think about the tiers in ships when I have to pay for them.
BS are fine for the most part. They are fairly well balanced just some minor niggles. The case becomes clearer when we move to tier 1 vs tier 2 BC's. Tier 1 BC's are mostly underpowered compared to the tier 2 ones. Now if we move down into cruisers and frigates. Here we start to see serious balance issues and strange roles ( mining cruiser thats also a logistics ship....?!?!? ).I cant seriously say that I've ever seen another tech1 logistics cruiser on my overview other than the Osprey, and those mostly only for POS repair. Honestly if you want to be usefull in tech 1 cruisers there are only 1-2 ships to choose from per race. Take the Bellicose, its almost decent, but just lacks the wow factor compared to the rupture. It has issues when you try to fill in the high slots with low fitting cost weapons and kitting it out with something that lets you survive 10 more seconds in a fight. It also lacks the apparent usefulness that the other E-WAR forms have. |
Zilberfrid |
Posted - 2010.04.09 13:03:00 - [ 19]
Originally by: Madmi CEO
What would removing the tier system help?
Take for example someone with Amarr Battleship level 4. Is that person more or less inclined to use an Armageddon, an Apocalypse or an Abaddon? The thing is - it depends. Tier system or not, people would still pick the ship that is right for the job. Very few people stop any skill training at level 3 - it's almost always level 4 or 5, except for the intermediary stages that last for a few days at the most.
Armageddon doesn't become any less viable with Amarr Battleship at level 5. On the contrary.
What about Gallente ships? Do people who get Battleship level 3 or 4 automatically stop using their Dominix? Hardly.
Honestly, I only ever think about the tiers in ships when I have to pay for them.
Look at smaller ships then: the battlecruisers are obvious, but in cruisers and frigates it becomes even stronger. |
Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
|
Posted - 2010.04.09 17:43:00 - [ 20]
Seems to me a good way to get rid of the tier system would be to mirror each races t2 specialist ship in its corrosponding t1 ship only at a reduced level with a one time role bonus and/or slight tweaks to its stats.
Take the augoror for example. Give it a static bonus to transfer amount and that would make it damn useful over the current ship but not really put it in competition with the guardian due to only having t1 stats. But with this one change that logi pilot in training now has a use in your gang in that augoror instead of sitting in station spinning the t2 ship he won't be able to fly for ages.
Executioner would be the same type of thing. Give it a static bonus to disruptor cap use like inties have so it can actually perform the role and again let an intie pilot in training have a useful ship to use past the rifter until he gets his skills up.
Now apply this across the board focusing each ship on its role and boosting its performance to compete with its t2 counterpart in a reduced manner and *poof* now all ships will be used at one point or another in a meaningful way. Properly done this could really open up the potential for awesome combined arms gangs that are affordable and most importantly effective. |
Max Hardcase
The Scope
|
Posted - 2010.04.09 18:01:00 - [ 21]
Originally by: Zeba
Seems to me a good way to get rid of the tier system would be to mirror each races t2 specialist ship in its corrosponding t1 ship only at a reduced level with a one time role bonus and/or slight tweaks to its stats.
Take the augoror for example. Give it a static bonus to transfer amount and that would make it damn useful over the current ship but not really put it in competition with the guardian due to only having t1 stats. But with this one change that logi pilot in training now has a use in your gang in that augoror instead of sitting in station spinning the t2 ship he won't be able to fly for ages.
Executioner would be the same type of thing. Give it a static bonus to disruptor cap use like inties have so it can actually perform the role and again let an intie pilot in training have a useful ship to use past the rifter until he gets his skills up.
Now apply this across the board focusing each ship on its role and boosting its performance to compete with its t2 counterpart in a reduced manner and *poof* now all ships will be used at one point or another in a meaningful way. Properly done this could really open up the potential for awesome combined arms gangs that are affordable and most importantly effective.
This sounds like an idea that could work. |
Guillame Herschel
Gallente
NME1
|
Posted - 2010.04.09 20:20:00 - [ 22]
Originally by: Shaemell Buttleson
For the masses of ammo it needs?
Laser boats use cap boosters as ammo, which is more bulky than any other ammo in the game. |
Usedpodsforsale |
Posted - 2010.04.09 20:45:00 - [ 23]
Originally by: Admiral Pelleon
Phantasm stuff
Cynabal: 5/5/5 -> 15 slots Gila: 5/6/4 -> 15 slots Vigilant: 5/4/6 -> 15 slots Ashimmu: 6/4/5 -> 15 slots Phantasm: 5/6/3 -> 14 slots wait, what?Also. Nightmare is quite agile. I would like to see the phantasm be less like a brick and get it's missing shields back, tia. |
Liang Nuren |
Posted - 2010.04.09 21:26:00 - [ 24]
Originally by: Madmi CEO
What would removing the tier system help?
Take for example someone with Amarr Battleship level 4. Is that person more or less inclined to use an Armageddon, an Apocalypse or an Abaddon? The thing is - it depends. Tier system or not, people would still pick the ship that is right for the job. Very few people stop any skill training at level 3 - it's almost always level 4 or 5, except for the intermediary stages that last for a few days at the most.
Armageddon doesn't become any less viable with Amarr Battleship at level 5. On the contrary.
What about Gallente ships? Do people who get Battleship level 3 or 4 automatically stop using their Dominix? Hardly.
Honestly, I only ever think about the tiers in ships when I have to pay for them.
The tier system matters a lot at every level below battleship. Its effects can even be felt at the battleship level though. When was the last time you bought a Slasher to PVP in? A Condor? Executioner? Breacher? Yeah, those ships artificially suck because of the tier system. -Liang |
Shaemell Buttleson |
Posted - 2010.04.09 23:56:00 - [ 25]
|
Khin'charin
Incidental Damage |
Posted - 2010.04.10 08:16:00 - [ 26]
Originally by: Max Hardcase
Originally by: Zeba
Seems to me a good way to get rid of the tier system would be to mirror each races t2 specialist ship in its corrosponding t1 ship only at a reduced level with a one time role bonus and/or slight tweaks to its stats.
Take the augoror for example. Give it a static bonus to transfer amount and that would make it damn useful over the current ship but not really put it in competition with the guardian due to only having t1 stats. But with this one change that logi pilot in training now has a use in your gang in that augoror instead of sitting in station spinning the t2 ship he won't be able to fly for ages.
Executioner would be the same type of thing. Give it a static bonus to disruptor cap use like inties have so it can actually perform the role and again let an intie pilot in training have a useful ship to use past the rifter until he gets his skills up.
Now apply this across the board focusing each ship on its role and boosting its performance to compete with its t2 counterpart in a reduced manner and *poof* now all ships will be used at one point or another in a meaningful way. Properly done this could really open up the potential for awesome combined arms gangs that are affordable and most importantly effective.
This sounds like an idea that could work.
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