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Tereliss Verr
Minmatar
Space Tech Solutions
PHOENIX REPUBLIC
Posted - 2010.03.17 12:40:00 - [1]
 

Hey People

I am planning on erecting a POS in Minmatar space, the POS will be used for BPO copying and Invention as production can be done easily in an NPC station (correct me please if wrong)
I will be getting a large tower, but the question is this,

1: I would like a faction Tower, which is best for my needs?
2: It seems wise to buy a faction BPC and make the tower yourself, is this prudent?
3: I have just read that missilie batteries are not a good choice as these stop working when the POS goes into reinforced mode.

Please forgive any spelling errors, I am dyslexic.

Thanks in advance for your replies

Enzu777
Posted - 2010.03.17 12:50:00 - [2]
 

I am going to predict the response (could be wrong) and say with the recent buff to projectile weapons as well as some other known benefits a domination tower would be the best, your obviously not going to need any weapons larger then mediums as its an empire pos so no caps will be attacking you. Not sure about your question regarding if its worth it to build it or not and am interested to see everyone elses suggestions, personally I have been checking out the way goons and bob/kenzoku's towers were fitted, there are some links on the forums.

Tereliss Verr
Minmatar
Space Tech Solutions
PHOENIX REPUBLIC
Posted - 2010.03.17 12:56:00 - [3]
 

Thanks for the advice, any chance of the links?

Emporer Norton
Posted - 2010.03.17 13:06:00 - [4]
 

Unless you plan on having 10+ labs or think your gonna be war deced might be better to use a small or medium instead of a large small uses 1/4 of large medium uses 1/2

Tereliss Verr
Minmatar
Space Tech Solutions
PHOENIX REPUBLIC
Posted - 2010.03.17 13:12:00 - [5]
 

Thank you Emporer,
I understand what you are saying and being Dec'd is a concern as I really can't be arsed to pull the POS down and put it back up again.

I would still like to know what would be the the best Faction POS for my needs in everyones opinion?

Tau Cabalander
Posted - 2010.03.17 14:17:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Tau Cabalander on 17/03/2010 14:24:09

For just yourself, a Minmatar will do. It has a great balance of grid and CPU, and very nasty projectile sentry bonuses.

On projectiles: POS sentries were not really affected by the buff. The only things that changed is that EMP ammo does a bit more damage now, and all ammo got a LOT smaller and is similarly sized; POS sentries hold a lot more ammo now. Ammo range bonuses/penalties and tracking bonuses/penalties do not apply to POS sentries.

My POS in a class 2 w-space system. Everything is online unless noted otherwise (0.0 security so defenses must always be online, but that isn't required in hisec unless wardec'd):

Top: 1 group (4x guns, 4x ECM, 1x web, 1x disruptor)
Top ring: 6 groups (2x ECM, 1x web or 1x disruptor)
Middle ring: 6 groups (4x guns)
Bottom ring: 6 groups (2x ECM, 1x web or 1x disruptor)
Bottom: 1 group (4x guns, 4x ECM, 1x web, 1x disruptor)

Domination Control Tower (large)
2x Ballistic Deflection Array
2x Explosion Dampening Array
1x Heat Dissipation Array
1x Component Assembly Array (main storage)
1x Ship Maintenance Array (not needed in hisec)
4x Ion Field Projection Battery
4x Phase Inversion Battery
4x Spatial Destabilization Battery
4x White Noise Generation Battery
4x Medium AutoCannon Battery
4x Medium Artillery Battery
4x Small AutoCannon Battery
4x Small Artillery Battery
2x Stasis Webifier Battery
2x Warp Disruption Battery
4x Ballistic Deflection Array (offline spare)
4x Explosion Dampening Array (offline spare)
5x Heat Dissipation Array (offline spare)
5x Photon Scattering Array (offline spare)
4x Ion Field Projection Battery (offline spare)
4x Phase Inversion Battery (offline spare)
4x Spatial Destabilization Battery (offline spare)
4x White Noise Generation Battery (offline spare)
4x Medium AutoCannon Battery (offline spare)
4x Medium Artillery Battery (offline spare)
4x Small AutoCannon Battery (offline spare)
4x Small Artillery Battery (offline spare)
6x Stasis Webifier Battery (offline spare)
6x Warp Disruption Battery (offline spare)

Ammo: EMP, Phased Plasma, Fusion, Titanium Sabot (notice guns are in multiples of 4). You can just do half EMP and half Phased Plasma if you prefer.

Research (online as when needed):
3x Mobile Laboratory (one is a Hyasyoda lab from Caldari epic arc)
2x Advanced Mobile Laboratory
1x Drone Assembly Array (usually not needed in hisec)
1x Ammunition Assembly Array (usually not needed in hisec)
1x Equipment Assembly Array (usually not needed in hisec)

Polymer Reactions (online as needed - cannot be used in hisec):
2x Biochemical Silo
1x Silo
1x Hybrid Polymer Silo
1x Polymer Reactor

I can do Research with 1 lab and Polymer Reactions at the same time. Most of the time I have 4 labs and 2 assembly arrays active.

In case of war, offline any labs and assembly arrays, and online more medium sentries and warp disruptors.

Tereliss Verr
Minmatar
Space Tech Solutions
PHOENIX REPUBLIC
Posted - 2010.03.17 14:34:00 - [7]
 

Thank you so much Tau
That list is awesome and I will look into using the parts I can, thank you again

Tau Cabalander
Posted - 2010.03.17 17:30:00 - [8]
 

I'll add that buying Hydrogen Isotopes for a Minmatar tower in Minmatar space is cheaper than buying other isotopes, because there is no importing fee.

A plain Minmatar tower in hisec is also cheaper initially than a faction one. With a faction one, you pay for your fuel savings in advance. The only bonus to a faction tower is more shield, or fuel saving over a very long time (a few years).

I have a Domination tower because I'm in w-space where it is a huge pain to haul fuel in and out with an Industrial, or Deep Space Transport, or even an Orca. In hisec you can use a freighter to deliver fuel to the POS, or even hire someone to deliver it to a station in the system for you (I think even Red Frog Freight has a refueling service, but there are several others that offer a refueling service, so check the sell forum). I also wanted the extra shield because I'm paranoid.

With a faction tower, the decision of whether to buy one pre-built, or the BPC and materials, depends on which is more affordable at the time. If you also don't have any Production Efficiency skill (I have PE 5), it may be cheaper to buy than build. I think I paid 900 million for my Domination tower pre-built, but had built a Dread Guristas Medium that I had before that (I'm so glad I switched).


Mistress Motion
Posted - 2010.03.17 18:09:00 - [9]
 

How many people are going to use labs in there? With maxed skills you can have 10 (or was it 11?) active invention/copy/research jobs at once. So 2 labs already leave you empty slots there. And as said, in hisec there's no need to keep guns online if not at war, so check how much grid/cpu you really need to keep things running.

Personally, since I use just one character, I've done well enough with just small gallente POS. 2 labs, equip. factory and component factory. (Just keeping those factories because it's easier to move invented BP's straight from lab to factories, and the fuel cost increase is really pretty much nothing. Yeah I'm lazy.)


Tereliss Verr
Minmatar
Space Tech Solutions
PHOENIX REPUBLIC
Posted - 2010.03.17 22:20:00 - [10]
 

Wow guys thank you, I have PE 5 and there will be 3x toons using the facility, the guns will be off lined unless wardec'd, the prices last i looked for a ready made tower were in the region of 1.2 billion were as a BPC is only about 7 too 8 hundred million, but I have time yet for standings to set so will keep and eye on the contracts for those.

Tellenta
Gallente
versic LLC
Posted - 2010.03.17 23:04:00 - [11]
 

For a high sec tower I would simply go by what ice fields are closer for ease of acquiring fuel. My POS is up in gallante space, so therefore I use gallante towers. You probably don't need a faction tower, but if you really want one just pick one that has a fuel source near-by. Unless your goal for a POS setup requires a certain POS for the CPU or whatever, however for labs all I need is a small to have more slots than I need with 2 or 3 labs on-line. with 3 characters I would be amazed if you need more than 4 or 6 labs to keep you occupied. Just remember to train up the skill so you can do research and copying from station and your actual risk is very minimal.

Volar Kang
Gallente
Ragged Rock Industries
Posted - 2010.03.18 03:34:00 - [12]
 

Fueling costs and hauling can be a pain so listen to the part about locating near the fuel you need. The cost for monthly fuel is roughly:

Large = 120 mill per month
Med = 60-70 mill per month
Small = 30-40 mill per month

If you go with a large tower, that fuel cost can really eat into your profits unless you are going to be using all three of your char's to research. If you are going to setup in a quiet system or you are not the type to talk smack in local, you may want to look at the medium. With some hardeners and E-war mods, you can make your POS a real pain to attack. If someone is just looking to take a POS down, they will look for an easier POS than yours.

Tereliss Verr
Minmatar
Space Tech Solutions
PHOENIX REPUBLIC
Posted - 2010.03.18 08:22:00 - [13]
 

The Large POS option is a deterent to be honest and a prelude to a WH deployment possibly, thank you all for the advice and please keep it coming, the more options, the better choices I should be able to make.

Iva Posavec
Takhar Matari Militia
Posted - 2010.03.18 08:59:00 - [14]
 

On the topic of the threat to the POS, I had a Hi-Sec and Lo-Sec POS for a long time without any issues with either. Two of my friends have had Hi-Sec POS's up for well over a year without issue and another friend had a POS up and he did get a wardec although once he on-lined a bunch of E-War and weapons the dec was retracted. So from my own experience the risk of war is not as big as people think, and if you have a bunch of modules off-line but on show then that is a good deterrent.

I don't know if this is any help but I never put a POS at the first planets, middle planets or last planets i.e. Planet 1, Planet 6 or Planet 12. This was because I gathered that when people are looking for POS's to dec they would start going through the moons starting in a logic order, so by putting a POS at a location away from the start or finish of the list meant that the hunter would most likely find plenty of other POS's before they would find mine. I don't know if that was any help or if I am just crazy but it just always seemed logical.

Tereliss Verr
Minmatar
Space Tech Solutions
PHOENIX REPUBLIC
Posted - 2010.03.18 09:58:00 - [15]
 

That seems logical to me also, but now we have said that, maybe they will start getting random?? lol, no good idea though, ThanksSmile

Gareshor
Posted - 2010.03.18 10:08:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Gareshor on 18/03/2010 10:08:54
Go with the ****star approach. Caldari Large tower, whatever the faction equivalent is. Throw 12x or 18x of each racial ECM on there. That'll consume either 2400 or 3600 CPU, out of the 7500 CPU it has. This gives you 4000 CPU to use on industry, which is plenty. The ECM will take up at 1200000 or 1800000 powegrid, leaving you another million to use for defenses. Industrial things generally are more CPU heavy than PWG heavy, so you can use the remaining PWG to fit small artillery, warp scrambling batteries, and energy neutralizers, to deal with stealth bombers, and ECCM modules. The 75% reduced cycling speed on the caldari tower will make the ECM batteries absurdly effective, and if you take the 18 racial ECM approach, then even if they attack from the side so as to minimize exposure to batteries, they'll still have to deal with 36 ECM batteries focusing on their attack fleet, in addition to whatever guns you use.

Then, to add icing on the cake, throw on shield hardeners to boost your resistances on your weaknesses.

Try to find a fleet that wants to do 70 million effective HP in damage while being hit with 36 ECM batteries. The only way they'll get that tower down is with 30+ battleships, or a dreadnaught.

Savatar Mei
Posted - 2010.03.18 10:53:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Savatar Mei on 18/03/2010 10:54:08
Originally by: Tau Cabalander
Edited by: Tau Cabalander on 17/03/2010 14:24:09

For just yourself, a Minmatar will do. It has a great balance of grid and CPU, and very nasty projectile sentry bonuses.

On projectiles: POS sentries were not really affected by the buff. The only things that changed is that EMP ammo does a bit more damage now, and all ammo got a LOT smaller and is similarly sized; POS sentries hold a lot more ammo now. Ammo range bonuses/penalties and tracking bonuses/penalties do not apply to POS sentries.

My POS in a class 2 w-space system. Everything is online unless noted otherwise (0.0 security so defenses must always be online, but that isn't required in hisec unless wardec'd):

Top: 1 group (4x guns, 4x ECM, 1x web, 1x disruptor)
Top ring: 6 groups (2x ECM, 1x web or 1x disruptor)
Middle ring: 6 groups (4x guns)
Bottom ring: 6 groups (2x ECM, 1x web or 1x disruptor)
Bottom: 1 group (4x guns, 4x ECM, 1x web, 1x disruptor)

Domination Control Tower (large)
2x Ballistic Deflection Array
2x Explosion Dampening Array
1x Heat Dissipation Array
1x Component Assembly Array (main storage)
1x Ship Maintenance Array (not needed in hisec)
4x Ion Field Projection Battery
4x Phase Inversion Battery
4x Spatial Destabilization Battery
4x White Noise Generation Battery
4x Medium AutoCannon Battery
4x Medium Artillery Battery
4x Small AutoCannon Battery
4x Small Artillery Battery
2x Stasis Webifier Battery
2x Warp Disruption Battery
4x Ballistic Deflection Array (offline spare)
4x Explosion Dampening Array (offline spare)
5x Heat Dissipation Array (offline spare)
5x Photon Scattering Array (offline spare)
4x Ion Field Projection Battery (offline spare)
4x Phase Inversion Battery (offline spare)
4x Spatial Destabilization Battery (offline spare)
4x White Noise Generation Battery (offline spare)
4x Medium AutoCannon Battery (offline spare)
4x Medium Artillery Battery (offline spare)
4x Small AutoCannon Battery (offline spare)
4x Small Artillery Battery (offline spare)
6x Stasis Webifier Battery (offline spare)
6x Warp Disruption Battery (offline spare)

Ammo: EMP, Phased Plasma, Fusion, Titanium Sabot (notice guns are in multiples of 4). You can just do half EMP and half Phased Plasma if you prefer.

Research (online as when needed):
3x Mobile Laboratory (one is a Hyasyoda lab from Caldari epic arc)
2x Advanced Mobile Laboratory
1x Drone Assembly Array (usually not needed in hisec)
1x Ammunition Assembly Array (usually not needed in hisec)
1x Equipment Assembly Array (usually not needed in hisec)

Polymer Reactions (online as needed - cannot be used in hisec):
2x Biochemical Silo
1x Silo
1x Hybrid Polymer Silo
1x Polymer Reactor

I can do Research with 1 lab and Polymer Reactions at the same time. Most of the time I have 4 labs and 2 assembly arrays active.

In case of war, offline any labs and assembly arrays, and online more medium sentries and warp disruptors.



noob question, why the offline modules? only so they can be onlined as per ur last line... or something else as well?
i read somewhere that the offlined modules can be used after u come out of reinforced, anyone know how that works?

Tereliss Verr
Minmatar
Space Tech Solutions
PHOENIX REPUBLIC
Posted - 2010.03.18 11:13:00 - [18]
 

Off Lined so you are not using up power and fuel from the POS when they are not needed, this is a high sec POS so you will only ever need defences online when at war, as for your other question, we will both have to wait for someone else to answer for us.

Eve Antonovich
Posted - 2010.03.18 11:34:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Eve Antonovich on 18/03/2010 11:41:39
A better question would be "Why the onlined modules"

If your tower is in high sec, you'll have 24 hours notice of a war dec starting. Assuming you're moderately active, you should have at least 12 hours notice.

Onlining defensive modules takes 2.5 minutes per module, assuming a 30 second faff time between modules, you can online 20 modules per hour.

Offlining labs takes 10 minutes. So you can (assuming the same 30 seconds faff), offline 6 in 1h 2.5m

If you have say 13 labs and 100 defensive modules, It would take you a grand total of approximately 7.5 hours to swing from a fully industrial, to a fully defensive posture. This will maximize your peacetime research potential, and still deter potential war decs, without costing the fuel to support the defensive modules during peace.

When the tower is out of reinforced, it is online, so all online modules can be used. What you might be thinking of is that while a tower is in reinforced, modules that require no CPU can be used - so guns etc... will still fire, assuming they still have ammunition.

There are a variety of high sec defense strategies, from passive defense to active deathstars, but you have to consider that any active defense that relies on guns to destroy attackers will be at best moderately effective against a determined attacker without POS gunners.

I'm also going to point out that there are 2 benefits to a faction tower, and 1 major drawback.

The benefits are increased HP that must be chewed through to reinforce and then destroy the tower, and a reduction in the fuel consumption of the tower.

The drawback is that the tower is significantly more expensive - making it both a steep initial investment, and more of a "bling" target for griefer corps.

A quick calculation I did once showed that the ROI on a Dread Guristas tower over a Caldari tower was somewhere in the region of 2 years.

Tereliss Verr
Minmatar
Space Tech Solutions
PHOENIX REPUBLIC
Posted - 2010.03.18 13:43:00 - [20]
 

Wow very insightful, this is giving me plenty to think about, thank you, please guys keep the oppinions coming.
I am thinking still on the Domination Faction tower, I didn't realise about the offlining and onlining times so thank you greatly for that.Wink

Tau Cabalander
Posted - 2010.03.18 18:03:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Tau Cabalander on 18/03/2010 18:35:34
Originally by: Savatar Mei
noob question, why the offline modules? only so they can be onlined as per ur last line... or something else as well?
i read somewhere that the offlined modules can be used after u come out of reinforced, anyone know how that works?

As marked in my post, they are spares.

If you have 4 sentries, and your attackers blow-up 4 sentries you now have 0 sentries. You are not going to go out and anchor more while being shot at, and most attackers won't stop until the tower is reinforced.

Sentries can be destroyed while being onlined. So can ECM, but it takes more effort.

Yes, when the tower comes out of reinforced, it is business as usual. You can then online the spares and repair the incapacitated modules. While reinforced, nothing using CPU works. You'll want some sentries online while you rep the shield. The shield cannot be repped while the tower is reinforced.

So that explain all the stuff outside the bubble. Now why so many spare shield hardeners? Well, if your attackers incapacitate everything, the extra shield hardeners greatly increase the amount of time it will take to deal with the tower. Hopefully attrition from boredom will buy time, or make them come back later (after you repped the shield again).

So the other important POS things to have are (especially if you are paranoid like me):
* spares
* trained gunners (Starbase Defense 4)
* trained reppers for shield, armor, and structure
* repping ships (note that ship arrays are usable when reinforced, as they don't use CPU, but the shield cannot be repped)
* extra strontium

Originally by: Eve Antonovich
A better question would be "Why the onlined modules"

As it states in that post, my POS is in 0.0 space. I also stated that online defences are not necessary in hisec. Of course, if you don't login daily, you may want to leave some defenses online in case you aren't around for the wardec, if you are paranoid like me.

"Just because you are paranoid, doesn't mean people are NOT out to get you!"

EDIT: One of the better threads: POS Setups: Jump Bridge, Cyno Jam, Reactions, Moon Mine, LoSec Mining and Labs. Worth reading the whole thing.


Tereliss Verr
Minmatar
Space Tech Solutions
PHOENIX REPUBLIC
Posted - 2010.03.22 10:40:00 - [22]
 

If the tower is attacked while at war I will have 2x people with defense managment at 4 and 1x person in a logistics repping the tower, hopefully this will be enough to keep the shields up and the guns firing, rarr hehe

Any flaws in this plan that anyone can invisage?

Tau Cabalander
Posted - 2010.03.22 18:56:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Tereliss Verr
If the tower is attacked while at war I will have 2x people with defense managment at 4 and 1x person in a logistics repping the tower, hopefully this will be enough to keep the shields up and the guns firing, rarr hehe

Any flaws in this plan that anyone can invisage?

Are going to allow the slackers to sleep? Laughing

Luckily that's what the Strontium timer is for.

For repping though, you'll want everyone that can fit a shield repper repping. It can take hours to rep the shield solo, even just the 25% needed to add Strontium.

We also keep several spare Osprey (aka POSprey) fit for repping in the hangar. They are cap stable, and don't take much skill to train for.

Aurora IV
Posted - 2010.03.22 22:05:00 - [24]
 

Tau's tower fit is excellent. Be careful 'pimp' fitting your tower with faction mods. Using a faction tower is fine since it's not worth anything dead. But anchoring a bunch of faction batteries and ecm will just make it a juicy target for a corp to make a quick buck, since you can un-anchor the good stuff as soon as the tower goes down.

Also keep in mind that even with all those guns, your tower will still only be doing like 2,000 dps, which can be tanked, even with pos gunners and all that e-war. All your going to do is discourage small corps from attacking your pos, but any real pvp corp can still take it down. So check who war dec'd you when/if it happens and be ready to pull it all down if they look legit.

Tereliss Verr
Minmatar
Space Tech Solutions
PHOENIX REPUBLIC
Posted - 2010.03.23 08:05:00 - [25]
 

Very wise words and duely noted, thank you

Tau Cabalander
Posted - 2010.03.23 18:57:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Aurora IV
Also keep in mind that even with all those guns, your tower will still only be doing like 2,000 dps, which can be tanked, even with pos gunners and all that e-war.

That's what Artillery is for. Each medium arty sentry hits for about 3,000 damage so with 2 co-ordinated gunners controlling 8 medium sentries that's about a 24,000 volley, with damage across all four resists. Now add a warp disruptor, webber, and ECM into the mix... ouch!

Note that if you are defending, you can offline a few shield hardeners (one of each) to online even more sentries. The hardeners are mostly for buying time when you are not around.


Aurora IV
Posted - 2010.03.23 20:22:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Tau Cabalander
That's what Artillery is for. Each medium arty sentry hits for about 3,000 damage so with 2 co-ordinated gunners controlling 8 medium sentries that's about a 24,000 volley, with damage across all four resists. Now add a warp disruptor, webber, and ECM into the mix... ouch!


24,000 alpha isn't going to kill much when the cycle time on your arties is about 16 seconds. That is plenty of time for the rest of the gang to lock up and RR the primary. Even with 16 ECM, all it would take is around 25 RR battleships to take the tower down with no losses (unless they fall asleep since it takes a little more than a minute to pop a realistic battleship with 8 medium sentries). 25 RR battleships with good co-ordination is more than most corps can throw together, but it is far from impossible.

It really just come back to, if your dec'd by a 20 man griefer corp, laugh in their faces if they try to take it down. But, if its a 100 man merc alliance, then things might get a bit dicey, and your probably better off taking it down rather then trying to fight them off.

Ben Shacar
Posted - 2010.03.23 23:21:00 - [28]
 

Can I add a question to this thread? Does anyone use a POS for ship building in hi sec? Just T1 BC and BS. And if so what is a good layout? I have been building some prototypes using a few programs, but am unsure of how to store all the minerals I would be using. I have 2 characters with 18 slots total, so mineral usage would be intense. I can figure out the Ship Arrays and such, but storing 2b worth of minerals is a bit hard to figure.

Thanks


Tau Cabalander
Posted - 2010.03.24 05:58:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Tau Cabalander on 24/03/2010 06:14:05
Originally by: Ben Shacar
I can figure out the Ship Arrays and such, but storing 2b worth of minerals is a bit hard to figure.

You can use a ship array for storage. For example, a Large Ship Array holds 18,500,500 m3 of anything, and minerals are 0.01 m3 each. It doesn't even have to be online to access the contents; it only needs to be online to be filled (or when building with it).

Or just use multiple Corporate Hangars (1,400,000 m3 each) the same way.

Storage should never be problem with a POS. Just anchor more.

EDIT: Also note that if you deliver a job to a full array, the array will become overfilled. Nothing will be lost, you are just not allowed to put anything more into the array until you make some room.

Tellenta
Gallente
versic LLC
Posted - 2010.03.24 20:42:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Eve Antonovich


Offlining labs takes 10 minutes. So you can (assuming the same 30 seconds faff), offline 6 in 1h 2.5m



offlining labs is instant. anchoring, unanchoring, and onlining take time. Remember if you are going to remove the labs from the pos for the duration of the war they must be empty before you can unanchor them.

Not sure if anyone corrected this already, if so then bump?


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