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Cecilia Syal
Minmatar
Blood Inquisition
Posted - 2010.02.04 19:27:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Cecilia Syal on 04/02/2010 19:49:54
Edited by: Cecilia Syal on 04/02/2010 19:30:46

I was wondering CCP's Policy on Macro's, after petitioning a few afk macro mission runners who play 23/7... and not getting a direct answer if its permitted or not....

First: many years ago I played Ultima Online in the OSI era, and only un-attended Macroers where banned by GM's. and only for 24 hours first time, 7 days 2nd time, and Perm banned 3rd time. I used to do attended macro's to skill up my blacksmith etc, would sit at my screen with repetitive tasks going and over several years only few times had a GM pop up and ask if i was there, even have nice chats, and I used the condoned UOassist program.

Firstly theres 3 levels of Macro's in my book:

1) Macro buttons on gamers keyboard, incase you want to activate selected hardeners everytime you undock or all non-grouped weapon slots at once without clicking. F1,F2,F3 (feature built into many gaming keyboards)

2) Attended Macro program's, that you can use for simple tasks. like moving ore to jet can every 1 minute instead of getting RSI. (feature built into many chinese gaming mouse's)

3) Bot programs that automate everything & can be fully afk. (in my eyes thats cheating unless your looking at screen whole time)

Looking at the EULA, snippet "You may not use macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play."



GM Horse

Posted - 2010.02.04 19:44:00 - [2]
 

Any form of macro use is strictly prohibited. Please report any players you suspect of using macros to us via a petition.

Lork Niffle
Gallente
External Hard Drive
Posted - 2010.02.04 19:48:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Lork Niffle on 04/02/2010 19:49:42
"You may not use macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play."

At what point can you infer 'light use'? It say not, a end of word, there is no but.

At the normal rate? No then you can use it at normal rate all the time. Or during normal playtime. Any form of automation is illegal, as signed by the EULA you accepted at the first launch of the program.

Normal game play does not mean 10am to 12midnight, therfore abnormal being able to 'play' outside these times. But Normal gameplay is times that You are sitting there playing the game doing every interaction.

Cecilia Syal
Minmatar
Blood Inquisition
Posted - 2010.02.04 19:49:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: GM Horse
Any form of macro use is strictly prohibited. Please report any players you suspect of using macros to us via a petition.


Ok thanks for reply, I'll keep petitioning them then! Especially the magnate fleet in Kronsur... but It would be nice if the EULA was re-worded, seems to not really imply its strictly prohibited. or else I wouldn't of made this silly post.

GM Horse

Posted - 2010.02.04 19:52:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Cecilia Syal

Ok thanks for reply, I'll keep petitioning them then! Especially the magnate fleet in Kronsur... but It would be nice if the EULA was re-worded, seems to not really imply its strictly prohibited. or else I wouldn't of made this silly post.



Originally by: "the EULA"
You may not use macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. You may not rewrite or modify the user interface or otherwise manipulate data in any way to acquire items, currency, objects, character attributes or beneficial actions not actually acquired or achieved in the Game.


Seems pretty cut and dry to me. Wink

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.02.04 19:57:00 - [6]
 

Note that the "#1" category you posted is NOT really considered a macro by CCP, or at least never enforced.
Various CCP representatives they have repeatedly stated programmable gaming keyboard keys (like the one on the G15 or whatever it's called) are ok to use, and they haven't qualified their replies as being personal (as opposed to CCP semi-official policy).
So, #1 is not considered a macro, and hence not forbidden, even if the EULA might at first glance seem to state otherwise.

w0rmy
Destructive Influence
Posted - 2010.02.04 20:02:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: GM Horse


Originally by: "the EULA"
You may not use macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. You may not rewrite or modify the user interface or otherwise manipulate data in any way to acquire items, currency, objects, character attributes or beneficial actions not actually acquired or achieved in the Game.


Seems pretty cut and dry to me. Wink


When you read part of the sentence of course it does.

However, if you read the sentence in an its entirety you get to this bit ...that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play.


I would have though a GM of all people would have read and applied the rules, in their entirety, not in partial blocks Shocked

Cecilia Syal
Minmatar
Blood Inquisition
Posted - 2010.02.04 20:04:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Cecilia Syal on 04/02/2010 20:07:01

The whole confusing part for me was how its one long sentence and just saying compared to normal gameplay. "at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play." and it then seems to imply something else. not saying i condone "botting", but was thinking of getting a gaming keyboard so i can activate all my active hardeners each mission with 1 button etc.

It should actually have a . after this part: "You may not use macros or other stored rapid keystrokes to be more absolute, I was pretty good at English in school. but then again maybe I'm just reading it wrong.

Bootius McGee
Posted - 2010.02.04 20:07:00 - [9]
 

Lawyers and politicians write like that on purpose. That way they can claim that it means whatevery they want it to mean on any given situation or occasion.


Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
Posted - 2010.02.04 20:09:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Cecilia Syal
Edited by: Cecilia Syal on 04/02/2010 20:07:01

The whole confusing part for me was how its one long sentence and just saying compared to normal gameplay. "at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play." and it then seems to imply something else. not saying i condone "botting", but was thinking of getting a gaming keyboard so i can activate all my active hardeners each mission with 1 button etc.

It should actually have a . after this part: "You may not use macros or other stored rapid keystrokes to be more absolute, I was pretty good at English in school. but then again maybe I'm just reading it wrong.

It's almost copy paste from another MMO. They removed the terms "dupe" and "cheats".

That's what you get for stealing CCP Laughing

Syringe
Incura
Posted - 2010.02.04 20:12:00 - [11]
 

Technically: no, you cannot use macros

Reality: CCP (rather through inability or choice) doesn't really enforce this. It's hard to automate detection of macro programs through any concrete means. The tinfoil hat version is that because macroers pay so much in subscription fees, they're generally left alone.

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
Posted - 2010.02.04 20:14:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Cecilia Syal
Edited by: Cecilia Syal on 04/02/2010 20:07:01

The whole confusing part for me was how its one long sentence and just saying compared to normal gameplay. "at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play." and it then seems to imply something else. not saying i condone "botting", but was thinking of getting a gaming keyboard so i can activate all my active hardeners each mission with 1 button etc.

It should actually have a . after this part: "You may not use macros or other stored rapid keystrokes to be more absolute, I was pretty good at English in school. but then again maybe I'm just reading it wrong.



exactly if I have 3 hulks and 1 orca (an example, me mining? lols) does 1 button press to move all cargo to the orca really "accelerate" my income? it still takes the same amount of time to mine, and the (click + drag) x3 really isn't very much significantly longer.

vs

if I have 3 hulks and an orca and I start the macro which logs 4 chars on after down time, and automates their actions for mining till downtime comes again, and I don't do a damn thing.

Titus Phook
Posted - 2010.02.04 20:27:00 - [13]
 

It'd be really nice to have an official comment on the legality of gaming keyboards, I have one but don't use it in Eve any more for fear of an account suspension, which has happened to friends using g15's and the like.

yes its an alt

Allen Ramses
Caldari
Zombicidal Mania
Posted - 2010.02.04 20:29:00 - [14]
 

One of the higher-ups (Oveur? Hellmar? Hammerhead?) stated that so long as it requires the user to actively keypress to perform the task(and it doesn't analyze or modify client data), it is not considered an automated system. The keyword here is automated.

If you press F1 and your target is webbed, scrammed, orbited, and attacked, it's OK.
If you press F1 and this is done to the closest small ship, it is not OK (it reads client data).
If you press F1 and this is done to all targets in a linear manner until you press F1 again, it is not OK (it is an automated task).


That's about the size of it.

Tramp Oline
Posted - 2010.02.04 20:34:00 - [15]
 

That "accelerated rate" part has always been the confusing part. Most of the macroers that I've scanned with my ship scanner use T1 strip miners and cargo expanders instead of T2 strip miners and mining upgrades. They also tend to be very inefficient in how they position their ships and target rocks so technically they are mining at a "reduced rate" when compared to a real-life person.

What seems to be the actual policy is:

"You may not use macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency or objects with the intent of selling/trading for real-life stuff"


Cecilia Syal
Minmatar
Blood Inquisition
Posted - 2010.02.04 20:38:00 - [16]
 


Good example Chainsaw Plankton, My thought process was the same when i read it, as i was thinking of different scenario's, like firing all groups of weapons at once etc. instead of F1 f2 f3, for my guns/missiles/nos, sure i could press all 3 at once for the same effect so its not accelerated over normal gameplay. still requires you to push button and interact, its not automated bot or giving advantage over normal gameplay.


Zartanic
Posted - 2010.02.04 20:42:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Cecilia Syal
Edited by: Cecilia Syal on 04/02/2010 20:07:01

The whole confusing part for me was how its one long sentence and just saying compared to normal gameplay. "at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play." and it then seems to imply something else. not saying i condone "botting", but was thinking of getting a gaming keyboard so i can activate all my active hardeners each mission with 1 button etc.

It should actually have a . after this part: "You may not use macros or other stored rapid keystrokes to be more absolute, I was pretty good at English in school. but then again maybe I'm just reading it wrong.



Yes it is confusing and ambiguous. It does not say you can't do it for activating modules for instance. As they included a list of activities they should have done them all or left them all out. I suspect a good lawyer would run rings around the way it was worded.

Swiftgaze
Elysium Trading Company
Posted - 2010.02.04 20:55:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Swiftgaze on 04/02/2010 20:58:40
Originally by: GM Horse
Originally by: Cecilia Syal

Ok thanks for reply, I'll keep petitioning them then! Especially the magnate fleet in Kronsur... but It would be nice if the EULA was re-worded, seems to not really imply its strictly prohibited. or else I wouldn't of made this silly post.



Originally by: "the EULA"
You may not use macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. You may not rewrite or modify the user interface or otherwise manipulate data in any way to acquire items, currency, objects, character attributes or beneficial actions not actually acquired or achieved in the Game.


Seems pretty cut and dry to me. Wink


Seems pretty? What kind of answer is that? Rolling Eyes

You might as well close the forum if the quality of your responses are on this level. Or leave it to people who can actually read.

Kyra Felann
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2010.02.04 20:55:00 - [19]
 

Apostrophes are not used to pluralize.

Dr Karsun
Gallente
Coffee Lovers Brewing Club
Posted - 2010.02.04 21:08:00 - [20]
 

I'm wondering... If I built my own keyboard (had resources, etc) that would allow me to have far more buttons than the current one (like 100 F buttons as a bonus) so that I would make all keybindings assosiated with a key somewhere on my keyboard... That would enchance my performance, but on the other hand if the g15 keyboards are allowed, why not fully personalized keyboards?

PS - I've got a keyboard at my fathers work station that is a combined 4-keyboards and shaped as he likes it. Would using something like that be prohibited?

Cors
It's A Trap
It's A Trap Alliance
Posted - 2010.02.04 21:59:00 - [21]
 

There's a difference between useing macro's and botting.

Macro's are stored keystrokes that are activated by a single or combination of keystrokes. Example, I have a macro on my G15 that turns on each mid slot. It takes about as long to do as it would for me to manually turn them on by alt/ctrl F1-F8ing.

Botting on the other hand, is a fully automated program that uses macro's of not only keystrokes, but also of mouse movements that allow someone to FULLY automate a process. Example is a program that undocks your ship, warps to a belt, targets a roid, hits approach, and starts mining till your cargo hold is full, then warps to the station, docks up, empties the cargohold into the hanger, then rinse/repeats the process.

One is you pressing a key to do something(even if it's a combination of somethings)
the other is a program doing things automagically.

Cecilia Syal
Minmatar
Blood Inquisition
Posted - 2010.02.04 22:39:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Cors
There's a difference between useing macro's and botting.

Botting on the other hand, is a fully automated program that uses macro's of not only keystrokes, but also of mouse


I agree on the botting issue cause its usually people who are AFK / away from screen we need to get those people out of the game, but in Asia you can get a gamer mouse like the g15 gamers keyboard here, just for mouse movements... one button on mouse to move ore from cargo to can etc. if they allow for keyboards then can't not deny same feature for mouse... and I am still unclear on the wording in the EULA. hope they at least revise the rules to be more concise.

Cors
It's A Trap
It's A Trap Alliance
Posted - 2010.02.04 23:07:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Cors on 04/02/2010 23:10:33
Originally by: Cecilia Syal
Originally by: Cors
There's a difference between useing macro's and botting.

Botting on the other hand, is a fully automated program that uses macro's of not only keystrokes, but also of mouse


I agree on the botting issue cause its usually people who are AFK / away from screen we need to get those people out of the game, but in Asia you can get a gamer mouse like the g15 gamers keyboard here, just for mouse movements... one button on mouse to move ore from cargo to can etc. if they allow for keyboards then can't not deny same feature for mouse... and I am still unclear on the wording in the EULA. hope they at least revise the rules to be more concise.



You're missing the point.

A Macro is a set of pre programed movements/keystrokes/whatever that YOU start when you need to do a particular action.

A BOT is something that does it automatically within the confines of a program, to automate a STRING of macro's, so you can start the program, and walk away from the computer and it will keep on going.

Macro's ARE allowed. BOTS are not. The GM at the top replied in too simplistic of a manner, as Sr Devs have responded in the mast that macro's for keyboards are fine, but BOTTING is not.


You sound like you are trying to get permission to use a bot program, simply because you are trying to justify it as a collection of macro's.

Seriously. If you are having trouble with the distinction between a macro and a bot, then just don't do it. It's that simple.



As for the EULA, it's quite clear. If it does something faster then a person, then it's bad.

Me pressing F1-F8 can be done with both hands in the same amount of time as it takes the macro on my G15 keyboard to do it. Actually , the macro does it slower due to pre programed delays between each button press. so it's allowed. A program that automatically empties your cargo into a can is NOT allowed as it is an automation of mouse movements. Key presses are fine, but not mouse movements.

Elrood III
Posted - 2010.02.04 23:17:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Cecilia Syal
I was wondering CCP's Policy on Macro's


Who is this Macro guy you keep talking about?

See also

Cecilia Syal
Minmatar
Blood Inquisition
Posted - 2010.02.04 23:25:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Cecilia Syal on 04/02/2010 23:40:16

EULA: You may not use macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play.

GM Horse: Any form of macro use is strictly prohibited. Please report any players you suspect of using macros to us via a petition.

Cors: (not your words but gist of your meaning) : Macro's for keystrokes is ok but not mouse movements, and as long as they are slower than what you could humanly press yourself

So yes i seen these gaming keyboards, and gaming mouse, and they work exacly the same you can record a mouse movement to a key binding on mouse, same as you can assign series of keystrokes on gaming keyboard to a a single key, (( THEY ARE EXACLY ALIKE )), just different in methods, one does keystrokes one mouse strokes so to speak.. and both macros run slower than you could do yourself in real life, both require you to press a button. and aren't a BOT... so for mining like instead of dragging ore per cycle you click r5 on mouse. and it plays back your previously recorded mouse movement as if you did it. even slower than you could.

So who's right, the EULA, GM Horse, or You ?

edit: also the G15 gaming keyboard uses software to do its macro's, its not a piece of hardware alone, just the keys on it are to trigger the macro's the logitech software initiates, same as the gaming mouse i seen from china. just does the same thing for mouse stroke combination's instead of keys. so if you try to differentiate a bot as software and G15 macros as a keyboard, your wrong

ThaDollaGenerale
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.02.05 00:08:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Cecilia Syal
Edited by: Cecilia Syal on 04/02/2010 19:49:54
Edited by: Cecilia Syal on 04/02/2010 19:30:46

Macro's,
GM's
macro's
Macro's
program's





*waves hand* These are not the plurals you are looking for.

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
Posted - 2010.02.05 00:52:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Chainsaw Plankton on 05/02/2010 00:51:54
Originally by: Cors
blah blah blah


and a hacker is a good guy, it is the crackers that break in and take your stuff.

damn good guys stealing accounts

Archestratidas
Posted - 2010.02.05 00:53:00 - [28]
 

So..

what about the text spamming macros contract spammers use in jita/trade hubs to pawn off their 'great buys' every 2-5 minutes?

Always wondered how they never seem to get banned.

Cecilia Syal
Minmatar
Blood Inquisition
Posted - 2010.02.05 00:55:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Cecilia Syal on 05/02/2010 01:07:19
Originally by: ThaDollaGenerale


Macro's,
GM's
macro's
Macro's
program's






i Can's Tell's. lol's, how's about you rewrite all my post's please since it's soooo hard to understand all you can notice is my mistake's :P O/ hail the plural .... , now wheree's all the grammar one's.. better to just tl;dr .... extra ''' for you... how bout you add something meaningful to topic than troll it, i got the hint like 10 posts before that my pluralization suck's, and no i'm not fixing thread title's or any of the mistake's :P

Edit: Also Archestratidas, i wish this was more clear, most the spammers use macros, and admittedly a few here too, using macro keyboards... so where to put the thin red line?

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
Posted - 2010.02.05 01:09:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Archestratidas
So..

what about the text spamming macros contract spammers use in jita/trade hubs to pawn off their 'great buys' every 2-5 minutes?

Always wondered how they never seem to get banned.


want to sell crow 1 mil 999,999,999!!!


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