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CCP Tanis

Posted - 2010.01.25 11:26:00 - [1]
 

Howdy Folks,

We are looking further into the situation surrounding medium/large scale fleet battles. To get to the bottom of this we must run another mass-test, this time using special debugging code.

The test will begin Wednesday, January 27 at 5pm UTC. They are expected to last for about 1 hour. We need at least 50 pilots, preferably 200+… the more people who show up, the better.
_________________________________
Test schedule:

Wednesday [January 27] @ 17:00 GMT
_________________________________

How to connect to Singularity for this test:

  • Make a copy of the current Tranquility (TQ) client

  • Visit the Sisi patch page.

  • Patch the copied client to the Singularity build

  • Create a shortcut to eve.exe, edit the properties of the shortcut by adding the following to the "target" box: " /server:singularity" (note the space)

  • Login to the singularity test server

  • Join the in-game channel "MassTesting"

  • Listen for instructions and ask questions in-channel


What exactly is being tested?

Session changes:

  • Players will be separated into two fleets, X and W.

  • Test will take place in and around FD-MLJ.

  • X fleet will 'occupy' FD-MLJ.

  • Using W fleet, we will then test jumping into a gate-camp, from a system on the same node, and also a system on a different node.

  • We have added special debugging code to help us isolate problems.



What else should I know?

  • Try running logServer, read here if you're not sure how.

  • You will want to bring a fleet-setup BS or smaller.

  • You should pay attention to your FPS (use ctrl+f to view in-game)

  • Anyone able to use multiple accounts is strongly encouraged to bring your alts!

  • CCP staff and ISD will be on hand prior to the test to help move players to the starting location

  • Feedback thread will be posted at the time of the test

  • Use drones!

  • Give weapon linking a try

  • Spider tanks 4tw



Abrazzar
Posted - 2010.01.25 11:31:00 - [2]
 

You should be able to get some 2000 people from yesterday's node deaths. If they really want you to fix the situation, they'll help you out.

CCP Tanis

Posted - 2010.01.25 11:41:00 - [3]
 

I'll use this opportunity to bring up that though this particular test doesn't require too many people (only 100+), we will certainly be running more tests to isolate the causes of the current lag on TQ; however, those will require far higher numbers of pilots in order to replicate the behavior that we're seeing on TQ.

We have had issues in the past trying to get more than 200 pilots who actually show up, so we will be trying to find new ways to get players into Sisi for these bigger tests. Details are still being worked out, but we're still feverishly working away at this issue in the meantime. We'll be releasing more info about the larger scale testing soon™.

Batolemaeus
Caldari
Free-Space-Ranger
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.01.25 11:45:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Batolemaeus on 25/01/2010 11:46:17
Originally by: Abrazzar
You should be able to get some 2000 people from yesterday's node deaths. If they really want you to fix the situation, they'll help you out.


Op will be posted to corp/alliance forums.
I don't think there are ihubs/stations coming out at that time

Originally by: CCP Tanis
I'll use this opportunity to bring up that though this particular test doesn't require too many people (only 100+), we will certainly be running more tests to isolate the causes of the current lag on TQ; however, those will require far higher numbers of pilots in order to replicate the behavior that we're seeing on TQ.



Didn't you have bots for that?
We only need to generate huge cpu load, npc could do that. The last bit of stress will then be generated by players..

pandoran
Posted - 2010.01.25 12:00:00 - [5]
 

lol debugging code

that should please the 1000 pilots who lost stuff and blackscreened for hours


arjparking
Posted - 2010.01.25 12:09:00 - [6]
 

in the tq client i have no option to select the testserver. might help with participation if u described how to log in there.

Krestin
Dominion Pilots Institute
Posted - 2010.01.25 12:14:00 - [7]
 

I have a corp filled with eager EVE-Newbies wanting to buy expensive ships for 100 isk and get them blown up.

SeerinDarkness
Minmatar
The Legion of Spoon
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2010.01.25 12:23:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: SeerinDarkness on 25/01/2010 12:24:05
you want people to log into the test server. then fix the patching for it.
every time i have tried to connect to the test server the patcher goes and downloads the entire client AGIAN a 3 some hour proposition AND it also overwrites every single shortcut on my desktop and re-assignes it to test server at which point i ahve to re-install the game to get back on TQ.
how about you de-bug the massive fleet fights on TQ that are going on just about ever day of the week since we are obviously already paying to playtest the most broken bug infested patch of all time. not counting the stupidity of whatever scientist that thought putting bug brains in drone bodies was a good idea. YARRRR!!. Furthermore planning fleet fights around the fleet fight notification form just is not going to work...what happened to infiniband...how about some more bandwidth to trunkline connections..how about disconnecting the forums from the game world except for 2 or 3 times a day snapshots....how about sweeping your hardlines for physical van-eck devices which are stealing peoples accountnames and passwords. how about permibanning the isk spammers instead of relying on the populas to do the job for you. Twisted Evil
Seer

Batolemaeus
Caldari
Free-Space-Ranger
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.01.25 12:39:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: SeerinDarkness

you want people to log into the test server. then fix the patching for it.



Patching works fine. I guess the problem is mostly a pebcak.

Ga'len
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.01.25 12:46:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Ga''len on 25/01/2010 12:48:17
Originally by: CCP Tanis
Howdy Folks,

We are looking further into the situation surrounding medium/large scale fleet battles. To get to the bottom of this we must run another mass-test, this time using special debugging code.

The test will begin Wednesday, January 27 at 5pm UTC. They are expected to last for about 1 hour. We need at least 50 pilots, preferably 200+… the more people who show up, the better.
_________________________________
Test schedule:

Wednesday [January 27] @ 17:00 GMT
_________________________________

How to connect to Singularity for this test:

  • Make a copy of the current Tranquility (TQ) client

  • Visit the Sisi patch page.

  • Patch the copied client to the Singularity build

  • Create a shortcut to eve.exe, edit the properties of the shortcut by adding the following to the "target" box: " /server:singularity" (note the space)

  • Login to the singularity test server

  • Join the in-game channel "MassTesting"

  • Listen for instructions and ask questions in-channel


What exactly is being tested?

Session changes:

  • Players will be separated into two fleets, X and W.

  • Test will take place in and around FD-MLJ.

  • X fleet will 'occupy' FD-MLJ.

  • Using W fleet, we will then test jumping into a gate-camp, from a system on the same node, and also a system on a different node.

  • We have added special debugging code to help us isolate problems.



What else should I know?

  • Try running logServer, read here if you're not sure how.

  • You will want to bring a fleet-setup BS or smaller.

  • You should pay attention to your FPS (use ctrl+f to view in-game)

  • Anyone able to use multiple accounts is strongly encouraged to bring your alts!

  • CCP staff and ISD will be on hand prior to the test to help move players to the starting location

  • Feedback thread will be posted at the time of the test

  • Use drones!

  • Give weapon linking a try

  • Spider tanks 4tw





Why are you not looking at the logs on TQ to obtain this information?

Want to gather useful data, look at all the fleet battle requests.

That will show you where the large fights will be.

Gather data from the live production system. After all, that's where the problem is occurring on a regular basis.

This stuff has been tested to death on the test server and it's done nothing to resolve the issues in production.

Watch the large fleet battles on TQ, that's where you need to look, that's where the real data for the problems will be found.

Using a test server that can't handle 500 people online at the same time will do NOTHING to help you on this one.




Genya Arikaido
Posted - 2010.01.25 12:59:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Ga'len
Why are you not looking at the logs on TQ to obtain this information?

*ADDITIONAL HOT AIR*



The Logs, they show nothing.

Ga'len
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.01.25 13:01:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Genya Arikaido
Originally by: Ga'len
Why are you not looking at the logs on TQ to obtain this information?

*ADDITIONAL HOT AIR*



The Logs, they show nothing.


LOL, that is true, the logs never show anything. Is that perhaps due to the fact that they are NOT logging events on the production servers? That would explain both the BS responses to valid petitions and the need CCP seems to have to never test on production, only on a "test server".


NickSuccorso
Burning Napalm
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2010.01.25 13:10:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: CCP Tanis
I'll use this opportunity to bring up that though this particular test doesn't require too many people (only 100+), we will certainly be running more tests to isolate the causes of the current lag on TQ; however, those will require far higher numbers of pilots in order to replicate the behavior that we're seeing on TQ.

We have had issues in the past trying to get more than 200 pilots who actually show up, so we will be trying to find new ways to get players into Sisi for these bigger tests. Details are still being worked out, but we're still feverishly working away at this issue in the meantime. We'll be releasing more info about the larger scale testing soon™.


Allow players to redeem faction toys for the testing, and you'll have your fleets. I wish there was a bit more notice for this event.

Wraith Hunter
Gallente
Posted - 2010.01.25 13:31:00 - [14]
 

hi silly question time, i have my main eve client in my c: drive and another on a ext hd when i start to patch will it auto find the eve client or will i have to the choice of installation location ??

spyor
Posted - 2010.01.25 13:57:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Wraith Hunter
hi silly question time, i have my main eve client in my c: drive and another on a ext hd when i start to patch will it auto find the eve client or will i have to the choice of installation location ??


on patching to test it does not put the path of your eve in... it specifically tells you you are about to put a TEST patch on. then allows you to browse to find the TEST copy you want to use. then check about the shortcut etc..

alternative is, create new TESTCCP folder, copy your live folder to your TESTCCP, then add patch to that! It always tells you it is a TEST patch and the path to the eve will be blank.

Tinfoil hat on, incase it tells me its a liar now!

Jommis
Honningbarna
Posted - 2010.01.25 14:06:00 - [16]
 

See you on Wednesdayugh

Wraith Hunter
Gallente
Posted - 2010.01.25 14:58:00 - [17]
 

hi ty for the info, but how do u select the test server, i have got two copys running now, or is the test server not up ? the last time i was in the test server it was 5 years ago and there was a drop down box at log in ??

ArmyOfMe
Hysera.
Posted - 2010.01.25 15:04:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: CCP Tanis

We have had issues in the past trying to get more than 200 pilots who actually show up, so we will be trying to find new ways to get players into Sisi for these bigger tests.
honestly, it aint that hard to get 200+ ppl to get on testserver to help with the test. simply set a date were u promise to give all chars on sisi max sp, then u promise to give out super caps/faction ships etc to be used during the test in the system u deside to test in.
once ppl get a chance to test super caps/faction ships etc they come running like some mindless goonsLaughing

Ga'len
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.01.25 15:42:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: ArmyOfMe
Originally by: CCP Tanis

We have had issues in the past trying to get more than 200 pilots who actually show up, so we will be trying to find new ways to get players into Sisi for these bigger tests.
honestly, it aint that hard to get 200+ ppl to get on testserver to help with the test. simply set a date were u promise to give all chars on sisi max sp, then u promise to give out super caps/faction ships etc to be used during the test in the system u deside to test in.
once ppl get a chance to test super caps/faction ships etc they come running like some mindless goonsLaughing


CCP Tanis, fleet battle request system is your friend, gather date from where the problem lay, on the PRODUCTION SERVER!

"Left hand calling right hand, we would like to know what the heck you are doing!"

Lance Fighter
Amarr
Posted - 2010.01.25 16:06:00 - [20]
 

I would like to mention that there might be test code in place on the test server which creates logs for CCP to use; It is not feasible to deploy the code to everyone on TQ to test this stuff..

ballentiness
Posted - 2010.01.25 16:11:00 - [21]
 

Running a test while tranquility is down would be another win for your numbers game on the test server instead of doing this in euro prime time.

Andrus Delai
M. Corp Engineering
Daisho Syndicate
Posted - 2010.01.25 16:15:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Wraith Hunter
hi ty for the info, but how do u select the test server, i have got two copys running now, or is the test server not up ? the last time i was in the test server it was 5 years ago and there was a drop down box at log in ??

You need to create a shortcut that points to the test copy and includes the IP address of the test server. That info and more can be found here: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1108193

Andrus Delai
M. Corp Engineering
Daisho Syndicate
Posted - 2010.01.25 16:22:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Lance Fighter
I would like to mention that there might be test code in place on the test server which creates logs for CCP to use; It is not feasible to deploy the code to everyone on TQ to test this stuff..

Also, logging would slow down TQ more. In addition, sometimes you can't tell everything from a log and need to watch it in action. So who really wants a developer running debug on slower TQ code while you are in the middle of a fleet battle?

Also, running tests on a small scale first is the way it should be done. As the scale increases the number of log entries also increases and it's harder to isolate some problems.

Nye Jaran
Posted - 2010.01.25 16:29:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Nye Jaran on 25/01/2010 16:33:29
DAMN! I normally work from my home office Wednesdays and would have been up for this. This week, I'm working home Tuesday though.

One though about increasing participation: Make it a couple hours later in the day, you might get more NA participation and there will possibly be less EU players t be commuting home / eating dinner / etc. Downside is that you'd need people monitoring the servers to stay later.

Edit: "Why don't you review the logs on TQ": TQ logs are (hopefully) not set to debug level logging. Debug logging on production = think about the worst possible thing that could happen in Eve. Yes, including the servers spontaneously combusting. Enabling debug logging on TQ would be just like what you just thought of (unless it involved midgets and green jello, you perv).

Caidos
Triffid Systems
Posted - 2010.01.25 16:42:00 - [25]
 

Any kind of debugging or diagnostic code comes with a performance overhead and especially when logging the detail required to debug an obviously complex timing issue. Hence why we always get "the logs showed nothing" response, because if the logs DID show enough detail we would be complaining about a whole lot more performance issues.

Of course the real kicker is when performance profiling is the question of whether the very act of observing the behaviour changes the results in any significant way.

It's Gorillas in the mist. CCP is Dian Fossey and we're just a bunch of primates playing in the jungle :-)

Agent Unknown
Caldari
Posted - 2010.01.25 17:03:00 - [26]
 

Bah, why does it have to be noon time in EST? Crying or Very sad

Then again, it'll be almost an hour before it's anywhere near organized, so I still have a chance.

Sawyer LaFleur
Posted - 2010.01.25 17:41:00 - [27]
 

I understand that there will be technological glitches in ambitious expansion of unparalleled numbers of players interacting at once with complex algorithms being processed for each

... but, the way the system fails is absolutely appalling to me.

Its that people can be shot at while their clients are unresponsive…

It’s that sovereignty structures can still be damaged while large numbers of people in a system have the systems unresponsive.

Any approach to fixing lag really needs to implement some sort of feedback loop with clients open… to know how the lag is effecting clients open (there must be a way to freeze play temporarily in a node to query clients in a node minimally functioning mode and give a warning timer of when play will resume…or options for mass retreats…during periods where there are logged on but un-responsive clients… )

Basically if one side can’t play no-one should play in that system.

It could mean that game mechanics need to be altered in some rough way to prevent a planed blob and crash being a military strategy, and I’d leave that to other more experienced players to work out details…. Certainly there still need to be dynamics for less skilled, shorter term players from overcoming play differentials with numbers too though, especially on a defensive level.

… but as it is the priorities aren’t set right… to just work on lag incrementally and allow the status quo to continue doesn’t bump the issue to the top burner.

In the meantime, many players like myself will really be stand-offish about getting involved in a game where months of in game effort will be lost based upon technological glitches.

You’ll limit the game base to subscribers who are ok with that… and those people don’t care and will be the ones sticking around giving you feedback,

and you’ll lose hundreds of thousands more potential long term subscribers like myself , perhaps a broader audience of people less committed to the rules of mmorgs and more accustomed to rules of fair play in sport, adults who don’t want their recreational activities wrapped up in that sort of bs. ( I don’t know a single person in RL who plays mmorgs, and as a real estate broker, father , soccer coach etc, I defitely interact with hundres of peole .. some probably do but I don’t know it though)

Laminar Septimar
Gallente
Jelly Kings
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2010.01.25 17:44:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Laminar Septimar on 25/01/2010 17:44:50
How to get 2000+ into fleet? Take TQ-Server off for 1 hour Laughing

Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
Posted - 2010.01.25 17:51:00 - [29]
 

Epic fail CCP. When you do a sequel you need to make a proper title. Calling it episode 2 is just plain lazy and doesn't sell your product and/or service. You need something more catchy like:
  1. Lag Hunter 2: Return to Lag
  2. Lag Hunter 2: Return of Lag
  3. Lag Hunter 2: Resurrection
  4. Lag Hunter 2: The Revenge
  5. Lag Hunter 2: Lag Hunter Rides Again
  6. Lag Hunter 2: Hunt Harder
  7. Lag Hunter 2: The Reckoning
  8. Lag Hunter 2: Son of Lag


I do hope you have better luck(tools) this time, so you will get usable results from the tests.

Luke S
Zeta Corp.
Posted - 2010.01.25 17:55:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: CCP Tanis
We have had issues in the past trying to get more than 200 pilots who actually show up, so we will be trying to find new ways to get players into Sisi for these bigger tests. Details are still being worked out.


why not make every skill lv 5 again. that will get people to come. If the problem with that is people fling in cap ships. dont give them lv 5 cap ship skills.


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