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blankseplocked "Engine breaking" high speed missiles - Clarification please?
 
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Duchess Starbuckington
Posted - 2010.01.04 01:55:00 - [1]
 

I seem to remember CCP was considering buffing missile speed pre-QR, but didn't because the high speeds made the physics engine behave wierdly.

There are a few missile types (particularly cruises) that could really use a boost in this area, so I'm just wondering - how fast do they need to go exactly to make the engine start messing up?

A rigged Cerberus can fire light missiles at something like 11km/s with high skills, is this the breaking point or is it much higher than that?

On the off chance you've still got records or anything like that, just a few figures would be appreciated.
Thanks.

darius mclever
Posted - 2010.01.04 07:46:00 - [2]
 

And now take a look at the explosion velocity (because that is what matters for dmg)

and you will see that the cerb missiles might get to the target before it dies to turrets. but it will still do crap dmg. and btw you can get a rigged golem with cruise or a rigged cerb with heavy missiles also to 10.5k/s missile velocity.
not just light missiles.

a slight buff to explosion velocity would be more welcome than more flight speed. (not just for rockets! but they need it most:)

Firvain
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.01.04 12:13:00 - [3]
 

id like to see twice the speed for missiles(half teh flight time obviously). that way you can actully hit **** befor it dies in pvp. Then you can ***** about the explosion speed beeing ****.

and bring back AoE!

Duchess Starbuckington
Posted - 2010.01.04 13:11:00 - [4]
 

Both of you appear to be seriously missing the point. This is not a whine thread. Please take that stuff elsewhere. (Especially you with "bring back AOE" trolling)

I am curious as to exactly how fast missiles need to be going to start messing with the physics engine, the Cerb was mentioned as an example of how fast you can theoretically get a missile to go in the current client. Not as any kind of serious ship.

darius mclever
Posted - 2010.01.04 15:02:00 - [5]
 

I wasnt trying to troll you. just wanted to mention that it isnt limited to your light missile example.

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2010.01.04 15:50:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington
Both of you appear to be seriously missing the point. This is not a whine thread. Please take that stuff elsewhere. (Especially you with "bring back AOE" trolling)

I am curious as to exactly how fast missiles need to be going to start messing with the physics engine, the Cerb was mentioned as an example of how fast you can theoretically get a missile to go in the current client. Not as any kind of serious ship.


Ships started to break physics engine at around 20km/s iirc (at leats with visible errors like passing thru objects etc). So i guess missiles speed might be in similiar range when they start doing funky stuff like not hitting targets at all.

darius mclever
Posted - 2010.01.04 17:16:00 - [7]
 

hmm so maxing out missile speeds at 12k/s leaves enough room for the engine to work as expected.

Duchess Starbuckington
Posted - 2010.01.04 20:24:00 - [8]
 

I actually meant the other guy with the trolling remark.

As for the 20km/s thing - sounds reasonable, but where did you get that? I don't remember them releasing any hard numbers.

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2010.01.04 23:04:00 - [9]
 

From experience pre-speed nerf. My sabre was doing 10-15km/s and never (or almost never) had "teleportation" issues. As soon as i got claymore in gang and managed to hit 20+km/s i started just teleporting thru gates and stuff. Friends panther (top speed just under 50km/s) was teleporting thru objects while doing 30km/s all the time (and teleporting thru station model when doing 40-50... lol).

So i just assumed missiles might follow same trend. No sure data unfortunately as missiles never had that high velocity. They always topped at just under 12km/s.

Ofc CCP could just up the velocity of missiles on Sisi and let people check what happens then. Surprised they didnt do this yet tbh.

Also another factor is missile agility. I have no idea how agile are missiles (and didnt check database if various missiles have agility added to them) but fun fact:at some point rage torps (and sometimes normal ones too) behaved strange way. Drop jetcan, start using tractor eam on it, fire torps. Torps would NEVER hit the jetcan - thy would orbit it. The issue was fixed aeons ago (i think even pre-speed nerf, at the time CCP nerfed uber javelin torps) but still missile agility is another point to consider.

Duchess Starbuckington
Posted - 2010.01.04 23:44:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 04/01/2010 23:44:50
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
From experience pre-speed nerf. My sabre was doing 10-15km/s and never (or almost never) had "teleportation" issues. As soon as i got claymore in gang and managed to hit 20+km/s i started just teleporting thru gates and stuff. Friends panther (top speed just under 50km/s) was teleporting thru objects while doing 30km/s all the time (and teleporting thru station model when doing 40-50... lol).

So i just assumed missiles might follow same trend. No sure data unfortunately as missiles never had that high velocity. They always topped at just under 12km/s.


Ahh I see, makes sense. Thanks.

Quote:
Ofc CCP could just up the velocity of missiles on Sisi and let people check what happens then. Surprised they didnt do this yet tbh.


By the sound of it missiles do the same thing, CCP did do this internally and mentioned strange behaviour but never elaborated on it beyond ruling out buffing missile speed to hit nano ships.

Quote:
Also another factor is missile agility.


Good point...

So we can fairly safely establish that missiles could reasonably fly around 12km/s without misbehaving? Assuming agility was tweaked.

darius mclever
Posted - 2010.01.05 00:04:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: darius mclever on 05/01/2010 00:04:03
missiles already fly 11885m/s (cerb, 2xT2 hydraulic bay thruster maxed out missile support skills). a cerb without those rigs and implants has missiles going at 8437.5m/s. adding the ZML 1000 implant to the setup and you get 12479m/s.

so when you propose an increase of the missile speeds you want to take those rigs/implants into consideration.

Terra Mikael
Horizon Dynamics
Posted - 2010.01.24 09:42:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Firvain
id like to see twice the speed for missiles(half teh flight time obviously). that way you can actully hit **** befor it dies in pvp. Then you can ***** about the explosion speed beeing ****.

and bring back AoE!


You may be shocked to hear this but if you're using missiles in pvp, and they are anything other than torps or some type of assault launcher, you're going to fail in PVP.

Roemy Schneider
Vanishing Point.
Posted - 2010.01.24 10:27:00 - [13]
 

fix defender missiles first! -.-

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2010.01.24 11:31:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Terra Mikael
Originally by: Firvain
id like to see twice the speed for missiles(half teh flight time obviously). that way you can actully hit **** befor it dies in pvp. Then you can ***** about the explosion speed beeing ****.

and bring back AoE!


You may be shocked to hear this but if you're using missiles in pvp, and they are anything other than torps or some type of assault launcher, you're going to fail in PVP.


Confirming that heavy missiles are fail.


Rolling Eyes

darius mclever
Posted - 2010.01.24 13:43:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: darius mclever on 24/01/2010 13:43:19
Originally by: Terra Mikael
Originally by: Firvain
id like to see twice the speed for missiles(half teh flight time obviously). that way you can actully hit **** befor it dies in pvp. Then you can ***** about the explosion speed beeing ****.

and bring back AoE!


You may be shocked to hear this but if you're using missiles in pvp, and they are anything other than torps or some type of assault launcher, you're going to fail in PVP.


can you provide me some 0.0 fleet war fittings which include rockets, ham or torps?
thank you in advance.

(for things larger than stealthbombers of course.)

WarlockX
Amarr
Free Trade Corp
Posted - 2010.01.25 20:31:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: darius mclever
Edited by: darius mclever on 24/01/2010 13:43:19
Originally by: Terra Mikael
Originally by: Firvain
id like to see twice the speed for missiles(half teh flight time obviously). that way you can actully hit **** befor it dies in pvp. Then you can ***** about the explosion speed beeing ****.

and bring back AoE!


You may be shocked to hear this but if you're using missiles in pvp, and they are anything other than torps or some type of assault launcher, you're going to fail in PVP.


can you provide me some 0.0 fleet war fittings which include rockets, ham or torps?
thank you in advance.

(for things larger than stealthbombers of course.)


Here's the ones I know of:


darius mclever
Posted - 2010.01.25 20:36:00 - [17]
 

thanks WarlockX, i thought my list might be outdated.

Unspecial
Posted - 2010.01.25 20:56:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Deva Blackfire


Ships started to break physics engine at around 20km/s iirc (at leats with visible errors like passing thru objects etc). So i guess missiles speed might be in similiar range when they start doing funky stuff like not hitting targets at all.


Just thought it might be a nice time to bring up the fact that missiles (and all other weapons for that matter) pass through objects. I was ratting with a friend and noticed that it does look...well...****. Just something to think about

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2010.01.25 21:17:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Unspecial
Originally by: Deva Blackfire


Ships started to break physics engine at around 20km/s iirc (at leats with visible errors like passing thru objects etc). So i guess missiles speed might be in similiar range when they start doing funky stuff like not hitting targets at all.


Just thought it might be a nice time to bring up the fact that missiles (and all other weapons for that matter) pass through objects. I was ratting with a friend and noticed that it does look...well...****. Just something to think about


There is a difference between passing thru object (like asteroids) and not hitting because target moves too fast and server just cant interpolate (at least thats what i guess) its position. One is by default other is side effect of high speed.

Jim Raynor
Caldari
Bad Kitty Inc.
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2010.01.25 22:28:00 - [20]
 

missiles should warp :)

Yhael Xeal
Posted - 2010.01.26 09:55:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Jim Raynor
missiles should warp :)


THISIdea

Jonas Trelonian
Posted - 2010.01.27 19:01:00 - [22]
 

IIRC, high speeds don't cause any problems for the physics engine - it's more the fact that the client and server don't (can't?) sync fast enough when speeds start getting too high, and the desyncing is what causes the "teleportation" issues.

Unfortunately, until everybody has 100Mbps fibre optic connections to their homes, I don't think it's a problem that can be fixed.

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2010.01.28 10:08:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Jonas Trelonian
IIRC, high speeds don't cause any problems for the physics engine - it's more the fact that the client and server don't (can't?) sync fast enough when speeds start getting too high, and the desyncing is what causes the "teleportation" issues.

Unfortunately, until everybody has 100Mbps fibre optic connections to their homes, I don't think it's a problem that can be fixed.


I think its not rly the connection (client-server) issue but like i tried to guess earlier: interpolation/extrapolation problems? When ship moves 50km/s its hard to "guess" (extrapolate) its final position after 1 second passes because its just HUGE area to cover. Thats why sometimes missiles might just hit blank space and dont do anything. Yeh i know its exxageration (missiles never flown that fast) but i guess with hi-speed missiles similiar problems might arise.

TBH i would love to hear from CCP WHY exatly hi-speed breaks physics engine just to be sure. Then we could prolly come out with some ideas... atm its just shooting blindly.

Terra Mikael
Horizon Dynamics
Posted - 2010.01.28 11:17:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Terra Mikael on 28/01/2010 11:22:15

Originally by: darius mclever
Edited by: darius mclever on 24/01/2010 13:43:19
Originally by: Terra Mikael
Originally by: Firvain
id like to see twice the speed for missiles(half teh flight time obviously). that way you can actully hit **** befor it dies in pvp. Then you can ***** about the explosion speed beeing ****.

and bring back AoE!


You may be shocked to hear this but if you're using missiles in pvp, and they are anything other than torps or some type of assault launcher, you're going to fail in PVP.


can you provide me some 0.0 fleet war fittings which include rockets, ham or torps?
thank you in advance.

(for things larger than stealthbombers of course.)


oh, i was totally wrong. Don't ever use assault missiles or torps. they are teh suck. Pro, end-game, zero sec'ers only use heavy missiles on fully passive drakes.Rolling Eyes

Nox Gravity
Posted - 2010.02.04 03:08:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Deva Blackfire

I think its not rly the connection (client-server) issue but like i tried to guess earlier: interpolation/extrapolation problems? When ship moves 50km/s its hard to "guess" (extrapolate) its final position...

TBH i would love to hear from CCP WHY exatly hi-speed breaks physics engine just to be sure. Then we could prolly come out with some ideas... atm its just shooting blindly.


From how I remember it being explained this is pretty close ^^
It wasn't the speeds that caused the problem, rather the way the game engine handled them. There was a great Dev post once detailing it all (can't seem to find it now). IIRC - and I probably don't - your client looks at everything ongrid and predicts what might happen, next time it synchs to the server it finds out what really happened. Speed caused problems because higher speeds mean more possible interactions for the client to keep track of.

Things didn't break because you were travelling 30km/s, more that because of that speed you could potentially interact with many more ongrid objects. Does that make any sense? Or does someone have a clearer recollection?

Jim Raynor
Caldari
Bad Kitty Inc.
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2010.02.04 04:51:00 - [26]
 

from what i've been told, it's not so much the velocity.. it's the collision and the server reporting damage correctly at those velocities.. i wish missiles went like 30km/s.. lol

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2010.02.04 10:47:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Nox Gravity

Things didn't break because you were travelling 30km/s, more that because of that speed you could potentially interact with many more ongrid objects. Does that make any sense? Or does someone have a clearer recollection?


Yeh that was the thing i was thinking - extrapolation of missile path+possibilities where it MIGHT go = buggered. But then why do we need to have missiles as actual objects in game? Just make em like gun shots so you cant interfere with them. Suddenly most calcs will drop except for missile-target calcs. yeh i know they will be immune to smartbombs and defenders will need rework (they need it anyways) so no biggy imo.

darius mclever
Posted - 2010.02.04 11:56:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Terra Mikael
oh, i was totally wrong. Don't ever use assault missiles or torps. they are teh suck. Pro, end-game, zero sec'ers only use heavy missiles on fully passive drakes.Rolling Eyes


well your statement now is as wrong as your previous one. long range missiles aswell as short range missiles got their role. but saying that any pvp set
without hams/torps is fail, is just wrong. i love ham drakes and ham tengu.
also torp golem and raven are fun. but for fleet ops most FCs would curse me when i died in a short range missile ship.

small nit pick we use buffer tanked drakes. not passive ones.:)


 

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