| Author |
Topic |
Jazz Ark
Omega Essence Mining and Shipping
|
Posted - 2009.11.18 19:36:00 - [ 1]
I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I am hoping to get some input on what people think is a fair - and easy/efficient - way of splitting up the profits from an organized mining mission.  I've written up a draft of what I think would be a fair and quick way of splitting the profits, which uses 5 factors: time, ability, effort, behavior, and rank - all of which would be optional, based on the particular corp or op. Here it is as a Google Doc.  Think there are other factors to consider? Any other ideas or methods that you've found useful in day-to-day mining operations? Thanks. |
Mardiggian
Minmatar
Allied Technologies Incorporated
|
Posted - 2009.11.18 20:26:00 - [ 2]
Wait... what? why are you mixing up everyone's ore in one can? If the individual miners only owe the corp a certain percentage of their profit, but you're mixing up all the ore then dividing up the the isk at the end, no matter how fair you think you are, you're giving the most efficient, highest yield miners the shaft.
Easy fix, don't mix ore. If you're not able to do that, then it's not really an organized mining mission. |
Jazz Ark
Omega Essence Mining and Shipping
|
Posted - 2009.11.18 20:44:00 - [ 3]
 Originally by: Mardiggian
Wait... what? why are you mixing up everyone's ore in one can? If the individual miners only owe the corp a certain percentage of their profit, but you're mixing up all the ore then dividing up the the isk at the end, no matter how fair you think you are, you're giving the most efficient, highest yield miners the shaft.
 Maybe I am missing something - I am a relative novice at organizing mining missions... But I think that by putting everyone's ore in one can you can save the hauler some time (he only needs to find and open the one can) and you make sure that as little ore as possible is left in cans since the hauler does not need to make separate trips for each person's ore. Also, it saves time trying to keep the ore organized by person at the station. Assuming ore is not mixed, like you suggest, how do you handle payments for the defenders and haulers? |
Mardiggian
Minmatar
Allied Technologies Incorporated
|
Posted - 2009.11.18 20:57:00 - [ 4]
Edited by: Mardiggian on 18/11/2009 21:00:18It's cool. I was being a jerk there more than likely. I'm at work and can't sign on to eve to relieve some frustration...  Finding a fair way to split up mining profits usually causes problems for a lot of people, and then you have the guys that don't say anything and just bottle it up... and explode when they've finally had enough, and take all your stuff, heh. I just started my own corp recently, to avoid red tape and things like this, but if I ever expand it's going to be a problem for me then also. The last corp I was in, we had orca pilots, and it was easy to split up the ore and keep it seperate because you could each take a different hanger, or even mine into a can in a hanger with your name on it. Don't know if you have that capability yet in your corp. As far as paying the defenders and haulers, I would suggest you take that out of the isk that comes from the tax your charging the miners in your corp. You can do that, and still make a profit for your corp wallet, even if you raise the tax during a corp wide mining op... for instance, if your normal tax rate is 5%, then raise it to 7 or 8 percent during the op to cover the salaries for defenders and haulers. If your defenders and haulers are miners also, don't forget to set some corp time aside for them to gain the same benefit if they want to mine. P.S. It's a nice formula, and if you can get everyone in your corp to agree to it, then use it. Looking at it though, I'd be prepared to have discussions with some of the high yield guys that put in a lot of time mining during the op, but get less isk based on behavior.... |
lexitus |
Posted - 2009.11.18 22:13:00 - [ 5]
I'm currently in a situation like this, I joined a new Corp with bestowers for haulers and 1-4 retrievers for mining including frigates, cruisers and omens w/e those are. We currently mix all the ore refine and split the profits equally to people on during the day. So far it's been rather unfair towards myself and other high yeilders also to time put in. Probly the next time I see my Corp leader I'll be telling him I'll be solo mining/hauling so I can keep my isk flow at best for my future hulk fittings books and other ship I have a goal for. Hopefully we can work something out fair because I really like someone hauling with me mining only. |
Billia
I'm On A Boat Industries
|
Posted - 2009.11.18 22:24:00 - [ 6]
Maybe give everyone a number based on the turrets they have. So hulk pilots get 3, retrievers get 2, mining bs's get 2, and orca's rorqual's get 3 maybe 4 for rorqual. Then add up allt he numbers and divide the total amount of isk made during the op by the numbers for the amount each gets. so if u had 4 hulks and an orca, u would have 15. 150million isk was made divided by 15 = 10mill per share. so each hulk pilot and orca pilot get 30 mill each because they have 3 shares. Just and idea i came up with. also most ops i have heard of dont give protection a share because they make money ratting while the op is going on, but maybe u can be nice and give protection 1 or .5 shares each. up to the person |
Jazz Ark
Omega Essence Mining and Shipping
|
Posted - 2009.11.19 00:06:00 - [ 7]
Originally by: Billia
Maybe give everyone a number based on the turrets they have. So hulk pilots get 3, retrievers get 2, mining bs's get 2, and orca's rorqual's get 3 maybe 4 for rorqual. Then add up allt he numbers and divide the total amount of isk made during the op by the numbers for the amount each gets.
^ This is exactly how the "Ability" factor is meant to work. I agree, that this should be based on the type and # of mining turrets they're using. I hadn't thought about the protection getting ISK from rats, but that is a good reason not to pay them quite as much. To Mardiggian: No, we don't have orcas yet, just some retrievers, 1 hulk, some iterons, and some other smaller ships at the moment. I think that you and Lexitus are right -- if some people do not get their fair share, they may get resentful and leave the corp. Hopefully by giving the high-yield miners a high Ability score, that will help keep it pretty fair for everyone. |
Sky Mart |
Posted - 2009.11.19 01:07:00 - [ 8]
http://www.eve-search.com/thread/1017250
try that link.
the guy put a lot of work into his spreadsheet.
I've not actually used it, and I disable macros when I load it, but obviously he spent quite a bit of time working out just what your proposing...there is a factor you can put in for a certain share.
If your just splitting it equally among all participants...which is usually what I do hauler, guard, miner all equal shares....the retreiver guys catch up pretty quickly as they train hard for the hulk. eve mining tool will let you do that and even do split after a share to the corp.
I have seen an even nicer option out there, but can't seem to find it at the moment.
Let me just say simpler is better, if it gets too complicated people will think they are getting cheated or just not want to bother with the hassle.
speaking as a max skill miner I'm happy with the 50/50 split even if other guy is in a retriever(if he is only in a retriever he is usually much lower skill point and probably much more in need of isk anyway)...IF they are in my corp. Seeing how much more my hulk brings in gets them really motivated to upgrade their skills/ship to match. |
Taedrin
Gallente
Kushan Industrial
|
Posted - 2009.11.19 01:51:00 - [ 9]
The main problem with corp mining ops is that you have to make it worthwhile for all participants. This means in that at the very LEAST, you need someone in the mining op providing mining foreman bonuses. If you don't have these, then people can make more ISK mining into a jetcan and then hauling the ore themselves.
Haulers and defenders further complicate matters, as ISK has to be split even thinner. Even worse, defenders will have a hard time maintaining focus when they could potentially be making more money by grinding level 4 missions. An Orca pilot with high mining foreman/director bonuses goes a LONG way to making your mining ops more profitable.
A max skilled Orca pilot with implants can boost the productivity of your miners by a little over 60%. This means for every 10 miners in your gang, you can have an additional 6 pilots for non-mining activities, such as providing bonuses, defending, hauling, etc... without cutting into the miner's profits (presuming that 1 miner = 1 defender = 1 hauler = 1 gang leader). |
Baka Lakadaka
Gallente
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire |
Posted - 2009.11.19 02:54:00 - [ 10]
Just divide the whole lot evenly.
If the corp is taking a share, then take that out first, then divide the rest evenly. It doesn't matter if the person is flying a Hulk, Retreiver, Orca, hauler or tanking the rat damage, everyone gets an equal share.
This provides the younger people with the ISK they need to get into the Hulks and Orcas. Those with the Hulks and Orcas generally need the ISK less, and if you're setup for an efficient operation, they're well enough paid anyway.
The only rule is you fly what you're told by the FC, whatever's best for the group and within your means - if you can only fly a retreiver and an Itty V, guess what, you're hauling today because the hulks are doing the mining.
The main reason for this is: It stops your brain from exploding trying to work out ratios and shares based on skills, roles, efficiency, etc. Put the people to work on the best job they can do and give them all an equal share - easy.
Back when I started out as a miner in my previous corp/alliance life, this is how it was done. Guess what I spent all my first paycheck on - that's right, a hulk (the skillbook and the ship)! Then I was allowed to mine sometimes, instead of just hauling.
|
Vigilant
Gallente
Vigilant's Vigilante's
|
Posted - 2009.11.19 03:09:00 - [ 11]
Originally by: Baka Lakadaka
Just divide the whole lot evenly.
If the corp is taking a share, then take that out first, then divide the rest evenly. It doesn't matter if the person is flying a Hulk, Retreiver, Orca, hauler or tanking the rat damage, everyone gets an equal share.
This provides the younger people with the ISK they need to get into the Hulks and Orcas. Those with the Hulks and Orcas generally need the ISK less, and if you're setup for an efficient operation, they're well enough paid anyway.
The only rule is you fly what you're told by the FC, whatever's best for the group and within your means - if you can only fly a retreiver and an Itty V, guess what, you're hauling today because the hulks are doing the mining.
The main reason for this is: It stops your brain from exploding trying to work out ratios and shares based on skills, roles, efficiency, etc. Put the people to work on the best job they can do and give them all an equal share - easy.
Back when I started out as a miner in my previous corp/alliance life, this is how it was done. Guess what I spent all my first paycheck on - that's right, a hulk (the skillbook and the ship)! Then I was allowed to mine sometimes, instead of just hauling.
Exactly what I did when i ran corp ops back in the day. Corp share was 25 percent of minerals / cash. The rest was split between the rest of the guys, no matter there role in the op. |
Dr BattleSmith
PAX Interstellar Services
|
Posted - 2009.11.19 03:19:00 - [ 12]
|
Dr BattleSmith
PAX Interstellar Services
|
Posted - 2009.11.19 03:26:00 - [ 13]
Originally by: Mardiggian
but you're mixing up all the ore then dividing up the the isk at the end, no matter how fair you think you are, you're giving the most efficient, highest yield miners the shaft.
I've included "shares" in Mine Manager to handle this... However I find this position to be garbage. All the Hulk pilots I've worked with don't mind if under-skilled noobs get a slight bonus. A tiny bit of extra isk really helps them out, sure is better then giving them isk when they lose a big ship. In my experience Hulk pilots really couldn't care less and noobs really benefit from the insignificant amount of extra isk. Keeping each miners ore separate creates a great deal of extra work and is completely 100% pointless. |
Dr BattleSmith
PAX Interstellar Services
|
Posted - 2009.11.19 03:32:00 - [ 14]
Originally by: Taedrin
This means in that at the very LEAST, you need someone in the mining op providing mining foreman bonuses.
These extra bonuses are one of the reasons why it's not nessacery to separate ore, as the Hulks make more regardless of how much they are giving the noobs. Originally by: Taedrin
Even worse, defenders will have a hard time maintaining focus when they could potentially be making more money by grinding level 4 missions.
Defenders should spend idle time scanning for exploration sites for the group to do, grav or otherwise. |
Master Kent'sslave
Lonetrek Trade and Industries |
Posted - 2009.11.19 12:18:00 - [ 15]
Edited by: Master Kent''sslave on 19/11/2009 12:19:29
Dedaf has a nice exel spredsheet witch bases on what ship used and time spent. but tbh if a corp member aint interested in doing other stuff than padding their own wallet why are they in a corp then? let them make their own corp or stay in a npc corp.
I am just sick and tired of ppl joining a corp and just thinking on em selfs.
If they dont wanna share well then they got noting to do in ur corp. |
Laiyna
Madhatters Inc.
The Initiative. |
Posted - 2009.11.19 14:25:00 - [ 16]
All mining ops I have bene in do the next:
- Toss it all in 1 big can
- Perfect Refine
- Players (not accounts) that helped the whole ops get equal share.
Players in a Hulk get less, players who just started get way more, but in the end, the Hulk player needs it less. Everybody is chatting on mumble, everybody has fun. And as a bonus for the richer players they actualy made a little isk also.
I myself would be more in favor of splitting for each account that activily helped, but I do not make these ops happen :)
Laiyna |
Jazz Ark
Omega Essence Mining and Shipping
|
Posted - 2009.11.19 16:39:00 - [ 17]
Thanks for the all the perspectives. It sounds like some even-split system is most common. Nice and easy to administer ...but it does make me wonder why Hulk-owners are so selfless. Surely they have things to save up for too, right? I think I'll suggest my corp end up using an even-split system of payments to all corp members, probably weekly, with additional bonuses paid to those who attended the most mining ops and/or contributed a lot. Originally by: Master Kent'sslave
but tbh if a corp member aint interested in doing other stuff than padding their own wallet why are they in a corp then?
Unless it's purely a social-club atmosphere, I think all corporations should be helping all their members get rich. Either through mining bonuses to the fleet, combing talents together (e.g. expert miners + expert refiners), or by mining in areas that are too difficult to do solo. Another question comes to mind: How many people/corps use Mining Buddy or Mine Manager? I haven't tried either, but could see the benefit in some software to allow for complicated distributions to be done with ease. |
Captain Muscles
Caldari
Vindictive Bastards
|
Posted - 2009.11.19 17:00:00 - [ 18]
Edited by: Captain Muscles on 19/11/2009 17:27:51
I really like the concept. Here are a few suggestions/issues of mine:
I can't find the thread I'm referencing right now, but someone posted the actual m3/sec yield of a variety of ships given max skills. According to the numbers, 3 of the 4 mining frigates can out-mine the Procurer.
My suggestion then is that your 'Ability' category on the scale be based on the actual yield amount of the ship. This also gives a slight bonus to those who have invested more skills into their mining. Likewise, basing the 'Ability' score of a hauler directly on their cargo hold would help award those who invest rigs/skill in their industrial.
Also, lets say two people are on an op together, each contributing identically. If you include all parameters, the calculation ends up being:
p_i = P*0.5*0.5*0.5*0.5*0.5 = P * 0.03125 = 3.125% of the profit.
Did I miss something?
Edit:
p_i = P * ((t+e+b+a+r)/(T+E+B+A+R)) should yield the correct amount per share |
Laiyna
Madhatters Inc.
The Initiative. |
Posted - 2009.11.19 17:02:00 - [ 19]
Usualy if you fly a Hulk, you have 3 account (1 hauler, 2 hulks). It makes a nice break from solo mining in a belt.
Or you also mine in 0.0, and your regular ore is ABC&M. Veldspar is then just not worth it.
Or you trained Hulk, but no longer use it, so its a side proffesion you do for the corp thingie, and not as an income.
And do not forget, what you train for after a Hulk? its the best miner in game, and its the end of your train path.
Laiyna |
Discova |
Posted - 2009.11.19 19:12:00 - [ 20]
Edited by: Discova on 19/11/2009 19:12:54
Instead of basing the payout on ability or quantity brought in, I do the mix it together and split evenly. In order to sell that to my corp, I say that it is based on the time invested in the mining op. We are all here using our real time to do this, everyone gets an even share.
I also make sure that I recruit people with a base minimum mining level i.e. skills + ships. |
Vossejongk
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
|
Posted - 2009.11.19 19:50:00 - [ 21]
Originally by: Laiyna
Usualy if you fly a Hulk, you have 3 account (1 hauler, 2 hulks). It makes a nice break from solo mining in a belt.
Or you also mine in 0.0, and your regular ore is ABC&M. Veldspar is then just not worth it.
Or you trained Hulk, but no longer use it, so its a side proffesion you do for the corp thingie, and not as an income.
And do not forget, what you train for after a Hulk? its the best miner in game, and its the end of your train path.
Laiyna
Exhumer lvl 5 :P ? |
Mardiggian
Minmatar
Allied Technologies Incorporated
|
Posted - 2009.11.19 20:09:00 - [ 22]
Originally by: Master Kent'sslave
Edited by: Master Kent''sslave on 19/11/2009 12:19:29
I am just sick and tired of ppl joining a corp and just thinking on em selfs.
If they dont wanna share well then they got noting to do in ur corp.
Actually, I can turn that around and say I'm sick of corps mining members to fatten their corp wallet. I don't mind at all sharing, but there comes a point where when you're taking a large chunk of the corpies minerals, on top of taxing them for every transaction they do with their personal property, where it becomes obvious that a lot of the corp leaders in this game are only worrying about the corp wallet, and not the people in the corp. |
Jazz Ark
Omega Essence Mining and Shipping
|
Posted - 2009.11.19 20:18:00 - [ 23]
Originally by: Captain Muscles
Edit: p_i = P * ((t+e+b+a+r)/(T+E+B+A+R)) should yield the correct amount per share
Thanks! Google doc updated with your correct equation. There's probably going to have to be some trade-off between being completely correct with the "Ability" factor, and being fast and easy to implement. For instance, I would think that figuring in the exact yield of an op member with certain skills might be too cumbersome. The threshold will be different for all corps though. |
Liz Laser
The New Era
C0NVICTED |
Posted - 2009.11.19 21:02:00 - [ 24]
Originally by: Dr BattleSmith
Originally by: Mardiggian
but you're mixing up all the ore then dividing up the the isk at the end, no matter how fair you think you are, you're giving the most efficient, highest yield miners the shaft.
I've included "shares" in Mine Manager to handle this...
However I find this position to be garbage.
All the Hulk pilots I've worked with don't mind if under-skilled noobs get a slight bonus.
A tiny bit of extra isk really helps them out, sure is better then giving them isk when they lose a big ship.
In my experience Hulk pilots really couldn't care less and noobs really benefit from the insignificant amount of extra isk.
Keeping each miners ore separate creates a great deal of extra work and is completely 100% pointless.
As one of the hulk pilots you've worked with, I'm going to confirm this. Especially if it's a corp or other group of people  that intend to work together. Letting haulers or other non-hulksters earn more than their share just gets them into better ships faster so they can contribute more later. It could get old if you're doing it for hours everyday and know you could be making more on your own, but for how rarely most groups can get together, it's all good. There are very few people flying hulks that are overly concerned with isk. A hulk is basically an isk printing machine. |
mxzf
Minmatar
Shovel Bros |
Posted - 2009.11.19 21:27:00 - [ 25]
Even-split.
It's the easiest way to go by far and the most overall beneficial. In our corp, we do pick-up mining ops all the time, someone's out mining and another guy joins them and the third grabs the Orca and there's an op going. We play for fun, not for digital money, and some of us actually like just being able to help out newer players (I pulled together an op the other night where a few of us in Hulks mined and hauled with a 2d old char in a Burst I gave him and all ended up giving him the ore, we had fun just helping a new player and hanging out).
Also, with regards to the corp's cut, usually 25-75% of the players just say "Dump my cut into corp" on any given op, we're all playing for fun and we know that the corp will help us out a bit if we get in a bind for ISK. I don't know if we're just exceptionally laid back/generous but we have a good time, and that's what matters to us. |
Humuhumunukunukuapua'a
Amarr
The Random Tangent
|
Posted - 2009.11.20 12:24:00 - [ 26]
Edited by: Humuhumunukunukuapua''a on 20/11/2009 12:30:36
1)set up spreadsheet to portray actual mineral isk value (based off lowest yield ore, at 100% refine)
2)set up section on same sheet to plug in how much a presons can has in it, and then break out how many actual minerals they yield from their can u pull in
3)have a box that calculates total isk value of minerals in said can (i based it off of highest buy order price,which was usually around 10% lower than lowest sell order, so its a donation to corp)
4)optional to also take out a 10% fee for the corp (if you have a good enough orca pilot these 2 donation things are barely noticeable)
5)pay the miners then and there for their cans, or record as mining goes, and pay at the end
6)pay the guards by an hourly rate, or...my personal favorite, give them a free ship of their choice or two, already fully insured by the corp. this way they pay their time towards the corp, AND they get free ships, AND the corp gets the insurance payout if they lose it. every one comes out on top.
the spreadsheet takes a little bit to get right the first time, but then you just plug in different numbers after the first draft is made. i was handling 2x hulks, and the orca to collect all the ore, and 2x itty 5's to haul to station, AND recording all this info down. its not hard at all, and it makes a mining op go WAY faster since your gonna be busy the whole time.
*edit* by mining op goes faster i meant in your head, not in actual like game time stuff. although they do run smoothly. |
Tyranus vonCarstein
Caldari
Trader Bank Market Association
Shadow of xXDEATHXx |
Posted - 2009.11.21 18:01:00 - [ 27]
Originally by: Laiyna
- Players (not accounts) that helped the whole ops get equal share.
Laiyna
Yeah, I bring 2 miners and get 1 share? What if I bring 4 miners? Doesn't seem like I'd enjoy mining ops in your corp. This would NOT be the way to go to ensure longevity of your corp members FYI. |
Saehta
Sigillum Militum Xpisti
Fatal Ascension |
Posted - 2009.11.21 22:50:00 - [ 28]
I like the thought that the hulk player doesnt need isk and so the new guy should get a share that's equal. Why should someone who put 3 months into mining and perfecting his yeild have anywhere near the same share as the guy who just trained into an osprey? Cause the guy in a cruiser needs the isk more? For what... another cruiser?
No, the guy who needs isk is the one who is flying the 100m+ ship and is burning mining crystal becuase his expenses are higher. (He's also probably the one you are using for a perfect refine). The new player in an osprey probably has relatively few expenses such as replacing his 500k ship or buying that 100k skill book. His share should be equal to his capablities. |
Dr BattleSmith
PAX Interstellar Services
|
Posted - 2009.11.22 01:10:00 - [ 29]
Edited by: Dr BattleSmith on 22/11/2009 01:12:15 Originally by: Saehta
I like the thought that the hulk player doesnt need isk and so the new guy should get a share that's equal. Why should someone who put 3 months into mining and perfecting his yeild have anywhere near the same share as the guy who just trained into an osprey? Cause the guy in a cruiser needs the isk more? For what... another cruiser?
All depends if your corp *works together* or *works for the isk*. That Osprey pilot will be a Hulk pilot someday, the current Hulk pilot was in a cruiser once. If the corp works that way, then it works very well. Just takes people who aren't bean-counters. It's up to you.... pay for everything with isk, or make everything easier to run and keep it a bit loose. When the Hulk pilot who's helped out the new guys needs a few miners to help build a new personal BS or cap ship. Do you think they'll have problems finding volunteers? Nope, everyone rushes to help. Also you forget that Hulk pilot is benefitting from gang bonuses, Orca or Rorqual boosting etc. Unless they have their own gang boosters they get just as much either way. |
Jacabon Mere
Caldari
Capital Storm.
Reverberation Project |
Posted - 2009.11.22 02:29:00 - [ 30]
Edited by: Jacabon Mere on 22/11/2009 02:29:57 Originally by: Sky Mart
http://www.eve-search.com/thread/1017250
try that link.
the guy put a lot of work into his spreadsheet.
I've not actually used it, and I disable macros when I load it, but obviously he spent quite a bit of time working out just what your proposing...there is a factor you can put in for a certain share.
If your just splitting it equally among all participants...which is usually what I do hauler, guard, miner all equal shares....the retreiver guys catch up pretty quickly as they train hard for the hulk. eve mining tool will let you do that and even do split after a share to the corp.
I have seen an even nicer option out there, but can't seem to find it at the moment.
Let me just say simpler is better, if it gets too complicated people will think they are getting cheated or just not want to bother with the hassle.
speaking as a max skill miner I'm happy with the 50/50 split even if other guy is in a retriever(if he is only in a retriever he is usually much lower skill point and probably much more in need of isk anyway)...IF they are in my corp. Seeing how much more my hulk brings in gets them really motivated to upgrade their skills/ship to match.
You just gave me a big head. I used my spreadsheet for a time but it gets too muh of a hassle. I do what others have said and mine into individual cans then have a basic spreadhseet to write down exactly what everyone mines. I then take 30% off (orca bonus of about 50%) of which 15% goes to the corp and 15% goes to the orca pilot - depending on numbers of course. i usually equate the orca pilot to get about 1.5 x a hulk pilot. oh and the macro's you can safely disable i tied setting one up and didn't know how to get rid of it. |
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