| Author |
Topic |
Pyrhus Taavi |
Posted - 2009.11.17 16:49:00 - [ 1]
amirite? |
Grek Forto
Crosshair Corp
|
Posted - 2009.11.17 16:51:00 - [ 2]
yes, yes you are |
MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar |
Posted - 2009.11.17 16:53:00 - [ 3]
 Originally by: Pyrhus Taavi
amirite?
If all you do is gatecamp I could see why you would think that. Otherwise, no. Not really. |
CCP StevieSG
 |
Posted - 2009.11.17 16:58:00 - [ 4]
Moved to Ships and Modules from EVE General. |
Vincent Gaines
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi |
Posted - 2009.11.17 17:23:00 - [ 5]
alliances were using carriers to move stuff long before JFs. |
Marko Riva |
Posted - 2009.11.17 17:26:00 - [ 6]
The whole of insta hauling (not neccesarily insta travel done by caps, just the hauling) is the problem. distance and travel is no longer a factor meaning that it's way too easy to overextend and expand an alliance's influence. Things need to be smaller, taking more effort and needing more normal travel. |
Darcon Kylote |
Posted - 2009.11.17 17:28:00 - [ 7]
Originally by: Marko Riva
... taking more effort and needing more normal travel.
Cause that's loads of fun, eh? |
Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative. |
Posted - 2009.11.17 17:28:00 - [ 8]
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2
Originally by: Pyrhus Taavi
amirite?
If all you do is gatecamp I could see why you would think that. Otherwise, no. Not really.
I used to make a good living running T2 mods, faction ammo etc into 0.0 with a Blockade Runner. Now everywhere is Jita +10% at most. Sometimes even cheaper than Jita. Not worth the effort, never mind the risk (I was fine with the risk, even in the days before BRs had covops cloaks.) |
Psiri |
Posted - 2009.11.17 18:09:00 - [ 9]
Edited by: Psiri on 17/11/2009 18:10:08
JF's (and carriers before them) along with,
- Titans (now getting fixed)
- Moons (instead of people actually being in belts, moon mining is available to quite few people aswell)
- Empire profitability (causing people just to missionrun and mine in empire, making lowsec especially empty)
It'd be nice to see some more means of profit from PvP activity aswell, harvesting player corpses with a small chance of retrieving one of the installed implants on it is a good idea. |
Marko Riva |
Posted - 2009.11.17 18:10:00 - [ 10]
Originally by: Darcon Kylote
Originally by: Marko Riva
... taking more effort and needing more normal travel.
Cause that's loads of fun, eh?
No it's not, although it advocates teamwork. What it DOES do is create a new equilibrium where entities become smaller and your direct neighbours become more important, meaning more diversity and more room for smaller alliances. The gamemap is way too small already. |
Kazang
Wrecking Shots |
Posted - 2009.11.17 18:48:00 - [ 11]
Originally by: Psiri
Edited by: Psiri on 17/11/2009 18:10:08
JF's (and carriers before them) along with,
- Titans (now getting fixed)
- Moons (instead of people actually being in belts, moon mining is available to quite few people aswell)
- Empire profitability (causing people just to missionrun and mine in empire, making lowsec especially empty)
It'd be nice to see some more means of profit from PvP activity aswell, harvesting player corpses with a small chance of retrieving one of the installed implants on it is a good idea.
I would love that. Very macabre and very eve.  |
NaMorham Santorin
Caldari
Raptor Ops
Kamikaze Project |
Posted - 2009.11.18 02:08:00 - [ 12]
I for one would like the ability to reprocess (illegally harvested) clones to fuel clone vat bays. Create a market for corpses |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Gallente
Sigma Special Tactics Group
|
Posted - 2009.11.18 07:53:00 - [ 13]
.... and make boosters from their glands |
Anubis Xian
Ministry of War
|
Posted - 2009.11.18 08:04:00 - [ 14]
I think removing WTZ is justifiable now. Travel needs to slow back down overall. |
Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
|
Posted - 2009.11.18 12:10:00 - [ 15]
Talk to me about getting even more stuff into your JFs! |
Neesa Corrinne
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle |
Posted - 2009.11.18 13:25:00 - [ 16]
Originally by: Pyrhus Taavi
amirite?
Pretty much. Between Warp to Zero, Jump Freighters and Jump Bridges EVE has gone from tense and adrenaline driven logistics management to *yawn**click*yawn* *sip mtn dew* |
Merbusent |
Posted - 2009.11.18 14:07:00 - [ 17]
Bring on true convoy missions |
Deva Blackfire
Viziam
|
Posted - 2009.11.18 14:11:00 - [ 18]
Originally by: Anubis Xian
I think removing WTZ is justifiable now. Travel needs to slow back down overall.
You are clueless |
Anubis Xian
Ministry of War
|
Posted - 2009.11.18 15:50:00 - [ 19]
|
Deva Blackfire
Viziam
|
Posted - 2009.11.18 16:02:00 - [ 20]
Originally by: Anubis Xian
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Originally by: Anubis Xian
I think removing WTZ is justifiable now. Travel needs to slow back down overall.
You are clueless
You think merely disagreeing with me is enough? EvE was a better game before WTZ of any kind and it never should have been implemented, as a replacement for BMs or otherwise.
I hoped you would actually go and educate yourself wthout needeng me to show you the light (as i really cba to explain everything to everyone all the time). But if you really want: 1. before WTZ was introduced WTZ also existed (uh, oh SURPRISED?). So pretty much the day CCP allowed to create bookmarks = the day game "turned to worse" (by your way of thinking). Then i wonder... why didnt you quit it back then, coz it has to be horrible to play "worse game" for 5 years now. 2. WTZ is only walkaround of BM issue created earlier. If you remove it - people will go back to BMs. If you remove BMs - people will use noobscouts/ceptors/covops and warp to them at distance to move faster. So your idea will end up with more newbalts around, thats it. 3. EVEN if we exclude those you still have jump portals, capital ships with jump drives (j. freighters/rorquals/carriers), jump bridges which will move "faster". So your 'slowing game down' will only work on empire people you cant touch anyways but will not bother lowsec/0.0 dwellers in any way. And surprise for you: empire travel is already too slow wheras nullsec one is already too fast. But ofc you knew this when you came up with "remove wtz". As you knew about point 1 and 2. So pretty much: you are clueless. Removing WTZ will not 'slow down travel' - it will just slow down empire non-afk travel which is really a margin compared to amount of AFK travel that happens already in this game. Which will move non-afkers to afkers (whats the difference if i sit in front of keyboard and land 15km from gate and when im active and also land 15km from gate)?. And afaik CCP wants people to play this game, not to "afk it". |
Anubis Xian
Ministry of War
|
Posted - 2009.11.18 16:14:00 - [ 21]
Edited by: Anubis Xian on 18/11/2009 16:16:27 Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Originally by: Anubis Xian
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Originally by: Anubis Xian
I think removing WTZ is justifiable now. Travel needs to slow back down overall.
You are clueless
You think merely disagreeing with me is enough? EvE was a better game before WTZ of any kind and it never should have been implemented, as a replacement for BMs or otherwise.
I hoped you would actually go and educate yourself wthout needeng me to show you the light (as i really cba to explain everything to everyone all the time). But if you really want:
You won't say anything new, I promise. Quote:
1. before WTZ was introduced WTZ also existed (uh, oh SURPRISED?). So pretty much the day CCP allowed to create bookmarks = the day game "turned to worse" (by your way of thinking). Then i wonder... why didnt you quit it back then, coz it has to be horrible to play "worse game" for 5 years now.
Well gee, thank you Captain Obvious. But it was clear I already knew that. Quote:
2. WTZ is only walkaround of BM issue created earlier. If you remove it - people will go back to BMs. If you remove BMs - people will use noobscouts/ceptors/covops and warp to them at distance to move faster. So your idea will end up with more newbalts around, thats it.
Merely removing insta BMs was the largely preferred course of action, the only people that really opposed not implementing WTZ are 0.0 alliance members and people who used instas already. none of their arguments held any real water though, CCP ended up capitulating for the sake of pleasing spoiled brats rather than making a decision that makes the game better. You say the alt thing like it would be bad, frankly it wouldn't. Who would go through that much trouble? And if someone actually was willing to, so what? Quote:
3. EVEN if we exclude those you still have jump portals, capital ships with jump drives (j. freighters/rorquals/carriers), jump bridges which will move "faster". So your 'slowing game down' will only work on empire people you cant touch anyways but will not bother lowsec/0.0 dwellers in any way. And surprise for you: empire travel is already too slow wheras nullsec one is already too fast. But ofc you knew this when you came up with "remove wtz". As you knew about point 1 and 2.
What do Jump Drive capable ships have to do with all the tea in China? I actually think all ships should use Jump Drives and replace Stargates entirely. At least then there is a cost to the fast travel. Quote:
So pretty much: you are clueless. Removing WTZ will not 'slow down travel' - it will just slow down empire non-afk travel which is really a margin compared to amount of AFK travel that happens already in this game. Which will move non-afkers to afkers (whats the difference if i sit in front of keyboard and land 15km from gate and when im active and also land 15km from gate)?. And afaik CCP wants people to play this game, not to "afk it".
First of all, WTZ is used in 0.0 as well. Also, empire FW and traditional wars would all be a lot more enjoyable if instajumps and docking didn't exist. As for afking it vs sitting in front of the computer... so what? It really makes no difference, unless you get destroyed because you were afk. |
Deva Blackfire
Viziam
|
Posted - 2009.11.18 16:48:00 - [ 22]
Originally by: Anubis Xian
Quote:
2. WTZ is only walkaround of BM issue created earlier. If you remove it - people will go back to BMs. If you remove BMs - people will use noobscouts/ceptors/covops and warp to them at distance to move faster. So your idea will end up with more newbalts around, thats it.
Merely removing insta BMs was the largely preferred course of action, the only people that really opposed not implementing WTZ are 0.0 alliance members and people who used instas already. none of their arguments held any real water though, CCP ended up capitulating for the sake of pleasing spoiled brats rather than making a decision that makes the game better.
How would you remove instas? And how would you promote non-afk play over afk one? Im asking you because WTZ idea in current way it is on TQ was actually MY OWN idea i proposed as fix a couple years ago. So yeah im granddaddy of WTZ you see on TQ right now. :) Quote:
What do Jump Drive capable ships have to do with all the tea in China? I actually think all ships should use Jump Drives and replace Stargates entirely. At least then there is a cost to the fast travel.
Did you just jump in and post random stuff or actually read OP? Because jump- ability has helluva to do with 'fast travel' in eve. One example i like to show around: moving from dead-end branch thru venal/deklein then passing PB, landing in aunene then going to jita. It is around 40-50 jumps travel. It takes around 15 minutes. Next try to move from torrinos to jita via empire. Around 25 jumps (maybe 30, cant remember now). I welcome you to try and beat 15 minute time on this travel even with WTZ and ceptor (be it dualrigged malediction). Example above shows clearly that jump- capability shortens the travel and is massive advantage over WTZ. Ofc you again ignored it (your responjse above shows it). Result? You really dont care about how slow/fast the travel is. You care about those few ceptor targets that escape you on gates. Hear ye hear ye! You can actually catch them. Use scanner pre-locking on target with 1400+ scan resolution ship = dead ceptors before they warp from gate (hell i even died lately to this not-so-nice tactics - they got my ranis before i warped using lolki and devoter). Quote:
First of all, WTZ is used in 0.0 as well. Also, empire FW and traditional wars would all be a lot more enjoyable if instajumps and docking didn't exist.
Enjoyable for who? I do enjoy flying around in ceptor being night-on-uncatchable instead of dying to every camper around in HAC sized ship. If you want to kill ceptors you have few options but it means you actually have to commit to this. Ever heard of them smartbombs? They rock for killing ceptors that land at zero. Again with example above: quick locking+scanner pre-lock ship can also catch ceptors on outbound gate. Larger ships are dead. Only ships that are virtually immune to this are covops cloaked ones. Quote:
As for afking it vs sitting in front of the computer... so what? It really makes no difference, unless you get destroyed because you were afk.
It does. It is time spent on travel vs time spent on doing somethign else. If little Tommy sits 5 hours only to travel from A to B an little Johnny just sends his ship afk then little tommy gets ****ed. ****ed off little tommy cancels his sub - and thats not really what CCP wants player to do. And surprise (again i guess) - travel is one of the FIRST things newcomers see in this game. If you force them to spend 2/3 of trial time in travel doing nothing you migth aswell post "failure" all over the game. Coz you wont get new subscribers. So again: its about time to have a bit more points of view rather than having one - from the chair your ass sits on. |
Anubis Xian
Ministry of War
|
Posted - 2009.11.18 17:25:00 - [ 23]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Originally by: Anubis Xian
Merely removing insta BMs was the largely preferred course of action, the only people that really opposed not implementing WTZ are 0.0 alliance members and people who used instas already. none of their arguments held any real water though, CCP ended up capitulating for the sake of pleasing spoiled brats rather than making a decision that makes the game better.
How would you remove instas? And how would you promote non-afk play over afk one? Im asking you because WTZ idea in current way it is on TQ was actually MY OWN idea i proposed as fix a couple years ago. So yeah im granddaddy of WTZ you see on TQ right now. :)
I'm sure you are proud. I invented the current Sov mechanics, I suppose I'm proud of it. Anyway, WTZ is a replacement for instas, but it is not necessary to have ever replaced instas. It would have been just fine to not have both. Quote:
Did you just jump in and post random stuff or actually read OP? Because jump- ability has helluva to do with 'fast travel' in eve. One example i like to show around: moving from dead-end branch thru venal/deklein then passing PB, landing in aunene then going to jita. It is around 40-50 jumps travel. It takes around 15 minutes. Next try to move from torrinos to jita via empire. Around 25 jumps (maybe 30, cant remember now). I welcome you to try and beat 15 minute time on this travel even with WTZ and ceptor (be it dualrigged malediction).
Take a good look at what EvE is, it is a large number of 'star systems' connected by stargates. Each star system has defined locations. There is no free movement on a significant scale, there is no means with which to use the rest of the space meaningfully. What does that mean? Stargates, Stations, and celestials are the places people meet for better or worse. So why provide means with which to squash the MMO part of the game even further? Is it a failure in game design? Yes. Does it mean WTZ and anything like it should never be in the game as the game stands now? Yes. Quote:
Example above shows clearly that jump- capability shortens the travel and is massive advantage over WTZ. Ofc you again ignored it. Result? You really dont care about how slow/fast the travel is. You care about those few ceptor targets that escape you on gates. Hear ye hear ye! You can actually catch them. Use scanner pre-locking on target with 1400+ scan resolution ship = dead ceptors before they warp from gate.
I don't camp gates. Jump Drives demonstrate that EvE could very well have had a better interstellar travel mechanism originally. Do the negative effects of jump drive ships justify the negative effects of WTZ? No. Quote:
It does. It is time spent on travel vs time spent on doing somethign else.
Precisely, why are you traveling so far for so long if you could be doing something better elsewhere? Taking the consequences of time out of travel is not the answer. Quote:
If little Tommy sits 5 hours only to travel from A to B an little Johnny just sends his ship afk then little tommy gets ****ed. ****ed off little tommy cancels his sub - and thats not really what CCP wants player to do.
Why is little Timmy traveling for 5 hours in the first place? What could he possibly want to do that for? would it have to justify the time spent? I'd hope so. 0.0 was tons more fun to run around in when having a fast ship mattered and there weren't silly methods of countering WTZ all over the place. The cure is worse than the disease. Quote:
And surprise (again i guess) - travel is one of the FIRST things newcomers see in this game. If you force them to spend 2/3 of trial time in travel doing nothing you migth aswell post "failure" all over the game.
What are you on about? There is no forcing whatsoever. Moving around in this game used to take thought and planning, but now its just another thing you can do on a whim. So just let all ships Jump and remove gates entirely. |
Deva Blackfire
Viziam
|
Posted - 2009.11.18 17:39:00 - [ 24]
Quote:
So why provide means with which to squash the MMO part of the game even further? Is it a failure in game design? Yes. Does it mean WTZ and anything like it should never be in the game as the game stands now? Yes.
One question. Why? You never responded to it and never gave and actual argument WHY WTZ is bad. The 'it makes game feel smaller' is mute in this case. Quote:
Jump Drives demonstrate that EvE could very well have had a better interstellar travel mechanism originally. Do the negative effects of jump drive ships justify the negative effects of WTZ? No.
In which way landing in ANY system in range with 100% accuracy (jumping) is better than landing within system you are IN with 100% accuracy (WTZ)? You seem to contradict yourself now. You say that WTZ is bad because people move too fast yet you say jump drive use (which is way faster, safer and with same accuracy) is better. Explain. Quote:
Quote:
It does. It is time spent on travel vs time spent on doing somethign else.
Precisely, why are you traveling so far for so long if you could be doing something better elsewhere? Taking the consequences of time out of travel is not the answer.
Your answer suggests eve should be reduced to 20 systems so we can meet each other more often. And again: you exclude jump travel which AGAIN: is fastest way of travel and is the main point of the OP. Quote:
Why is little Timmy traveling for 5 hours in the first place? What could he possibly want to do that for? would it have to justify the time spent? I'd hope so. 0.0 was tons more fun to run around in when having a fast ship mattered and there weren't silly methods of countering WTZ all over the place. The cure is worse than the disease.
Because he wants to check out the "freedom" eve gives him instead of grinding his lv4 in one place. The "silly methods of countering WTZ" are also the same "silly methods of countering jump ships" known as titans and motherships. So again: you touch one end of the problem ignoring 10 others that arised in the meantime. Quote:
What are you on about? There is no forcing whatsoever. Moving around in this game used to take thought and planning, but now its just another thing you can do on a whim.
So just let all ships Jump and remove gates
Thats exactly what im saying. Why plan route, lets just jump whenever i want. So what will be your next whine then? Travel is too fast again? Also - costs of jumping ships are neiglible if you didnt know. Isotopes cost next to nothing in this game so do ozone and cyno alts. So i still dont know what you mean by "justification of travel speed by cost". |
Drek Grapper
Minmatar |
Posted - 2009.11.18 17:46:00 - [ 25]
Originally by: Psiri
Edited by: Psiri on 17/11/2009 18:10:08
JF's (and carriers before them) along with,
- Titans (now getting fixed)
- Moons (instead of people actually being in belts, moon mining is available to quite few people aswell)
- Empire profitability (causing people just to missionrun and mine in empire, making lowsec especially empty)
It'd be nice to see some more means of profit from PvP activity aswell, harvesting player corpses with a small chance of retrieving one of the installed implants on it is a good idea.
I think this is a great idea. Also...why don't they make bigger rat spawns in Low Sec so its actully worth it to rat. That would liven things up a bit no? |
Cosmic Rainbow |
Posted - 2009.11.18 17:50:00 - [ 26]
Edited by: Cosmic Rainbow on 18/11/2009 17:53:03 Originally by: Pyrhus Taavi
amirite?
Your seriously a tard. Firstly you have no reasons why, but despite the fact that I think your a tard, Ill have pity and elucidate why your point is....well...******ed. There are two reasons in my mind why you would make such a post: 1) You either used to sell bookmarks, or 2) your a Pirate whining about lack of gate gankage. Couple of questions for you "amiright" Have you flown a JF? Do you own one? I would bet not. The cost is rather prohibitive. Yes I do own one, and Im aware of the amount of risk of flying such a pig. In all honesty, it doesnt really get used that often due to the sheer amount of logistics involved in getting it to where I would like to take my gear. Let's recap whats required imho to use the jump drive (which is what Im assuming your complaining about): 1) Multiple Cyno pilots, staged at various systems throughout 0.0. Even if they are n00b alts, they have to be trained out, and equipped, then you have to do the hail mary and fly in a frig, through the 0.0 systems to get to your cyno destination. As you know its very easy to get popped in a cyno frig, so it turns out to be more of a hail mary excercise more than anything else. If you choose to use a covert ops/Recon, you increase the risk of isk loss, so its really not worth it. Once you get everyone staged you also need... 2) Scouts a plenty. If you happen to have a POS setup to cyno to, it makes it much easier, but not fool proof (some people gather passwords to bump out JF's - and it has happened several times especially for those alliances that have bridge networks at their POS's). Usually however, not all beacons/POS's are setup to jump to, and thus it is necessary to warp to a planet, and spark a cyno without a POS which is a big risk to jump into a given 0.0 system, even with scouts. 3) Planning with Liquid ozone, and jump fuel to make sure you have enough fuel to get in and out. The cost of jumping around in a JF, because the range is so short even with JDC V, costs quite a bit per jump. 10 LY would be somewhere around 10-12 million (depending on local costs) Usually a jump isnt 10-12 LY, but more like 20-30LY, and the fuel has to be doubled to get in and out (as IMO its ******ed to jump your JF into 0.0 and leave it there). If your fuel bay cant accomodate then you have to have fuel at the other end to re-fuel and get back out. 4) Low sec return to empire (based on the bottom of point 3) is always risky. Sparking a cyno in a low sec system, as you all know causes an insta-warpable spot. Try choking down a 4.5 bn loss from jumping into a low sec system at the wrong time, and see how you feel about it. 5) Ships have to be repackaged. Ive personally lost several hundred million isk due to having to re-package my ships and storing them in the JF for movement. With the reduction in cost of rigs (due to the various sizes now available) the cost has come down, but its still a significant cost when you calculate in the overall cost of using a JF (fuel, LO, lost rigs if your transporting ships, which is common) 6) Size of the cargo bay. For a 4.5 bn isk ship - the cargo bay is very very small. This results in some times having to make multiple jumps which always increases the risk of losing the ship and increasing the fuel cost. So in conclusion no JF's havent ruined EVE. The percentage of people that can use and fly them in EVE will tell you that. I dont have the stat, but I understand its quite low. Can they be handy? Sometimes, but most of the time it makes more sense to use a carrier and/or blockade runner and/or some other transportation method. |
Deva Blackfire
Viziam
|
Posted - 2009.11.18 17:54:00 - [ 27]
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 18/11/2009 17:55:24Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 18/11/2009 17:55:08Honestly? Of all jump- ships (including ability to get bridged) i would leave jump only to jump freighters and ban normal freights from using bridges/portals. They cost ****loads and their "role" is jumping around. I would even go as far as modifying them (subsystem/rig/whatever) to be able to carry ships instead of cargo so they have 2 roles to chose from (cargo hauler/ship hauler). BUT at the same time jump ability should be removed from all freighters (convoy them instead) and ship hangars pwned on carriers (those too split in 3 roles: fighter carriers, logistic carriers and maybe transport carriers with less cargo than JFs). But thats just general idea, and it will not happen anyways ;p Quote:
5) Ships have to be repackaged. Ive personally lost several hundred million isk due to having to re-package my ships and storing them in the JF for movement. With the reduction in cost of rigs (due to the various sizes now available) the cost has come down, but its still a significant cost when you calculate in the overall cost of using a JF (fuel, LO, lost rigs if your transporting ships, which is common)
You could like contract them too. Should work on all smaller than battleships and maybe commands/BCs |
Cosmic Rainbow |
Posted - 2009.11.18 18:12:00 - [ 28]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 18/11/2009 17:55:24
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 18/11/2009 17:55:08
Honestly? Of all jump- ships (including ability to get bridged) i would leave jump only to jump freighters and ban normal freights from using bridges/portals. They cost ****loads and their "role" is jumping around. I would even go as far as modifying them (subsystem/rig/whatever) to be able to carry ships instead of cargo so they have 2 roles to chose from (cargo hauler/ship hauler). BUT at the same time jump ability should be removed from all freighters (convoy them instead) and ship hangars pwned on carriers (those too split in 3 roles: fighter carriers, logistic carriers and maybe transport carriers with less cargo than JFs).
But thats just general idea, and it will not happen anyways ;p
Quote:
5) Ships have to be repackaged. Ive personally lost several hundred million isk due to having to re-package my ships and storing them in the JF for movement. With the reduction in cost of rigs (due to the various sizes now available) the cost has come down, but its still a significant cost when you calculate in the overall cost of using a JF (fuel, LO, lost rigs if your transporting ships, which is common)
You could like contract them too. Should work on all smaller than battleships and maybe commands/BCs
Yes you can contract them but it drastically reduces how much you can transport. You could transport 1-2 ships this way (below BS) and that's about it I believe. |
Anubis Xian
Ministry of War
|
Posted - 2009.11.18 19:41:00 - [ 29]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
One question. Why? You never responded to it and never gave and actual argument WHY WTZ is bad. The 'it makes game feel smaller' is mute in this case.
I'm not sure what is mute here, but anyway. WTZ is bad because it reduces the possibility of engagements that were already relatively badly designed. It also reduces the need for strategic thinking due to a limited need for logistical planning and execution. Which leads into the problem with most of the space in EvE. It's empty. Why? Because there is no point in using it when you can just pass through on the way to much better systems. Gone are the days when mediocre star systems had a local population. Quote:
In which way landing in ANY system in range with 100% accuracy (jumping) is better than landing within system you are IN with 100% accuracy (WTZ)? You seem to contradict yourself now. You say that WTZ is bad because people move too fast yet you say jump drive use (which is way faster, safer and with same accuracy) is better. Explain.
First of all, I don't do small game design ideas. I create them complete. Simply saying make 'Jump Drives the standard' is not really saying anything definitive. My overhaul of the interstellar method of travel would have several parts: Elimination of stargates that link Constellations to other Constellations and Regions. Jump Drives would use the sun of a system in place of the cyno. A very large and random jump in point would reside within a set zone, much like how the stargates do it now, except a larger scale. This does two things, it makes individual systems more defendable for alliances, but also makes complete lockdown by small to medium gangs impossible. Assume the jump in area would be at minimum the size of a standard grid. Quote:
Your answer suggests eve should be reduced to 20 systems so we can meet each other more often. And again: you exclude jump travel which AGAIN: is fastest way of travel and is the main point of the OP.
My answer does nothing of the sort. I suggest that distance should matter and be more than just an arbitrary number. There is a lot of space for a reason, but most of it is empty. The way it is now, EvE might as well only be 20 systems. THAT is my point. Quote:
Because he wants to check out the "freedom" eve gives him instead of grinding his lv4 in one place. The "silly methods of countering WTZ" are also the same "silly methods of countering jump ships" known as titans and motherships. So again: you touch one end of the problem ignoring 10 others that arised in the meantime.
The point is, while there is nothing wrong with pulling up roots and relocating, it isn't supposed to be something you can do on a whim. Otherwise the game would have had WTZ from the start. The fact people want to be able to take their BSes 30 jumps in under an hour is moot, since that was never intended to be the case. Why else would anyone want faster ships? Quote:
Thats exactly what im saying. Why plan route, lets just jump whenever i want. So what will be your next whine then? Travel is too fast again?
Also - costs of jumping ships are neiglible if you didnt know. Isotopes cost next to nothing in this game so do ozone and cyno alts. So i still dont know what you mean by "justification of travel speed by cost".
Let me ask you a question and we will see if you can actually answer it. Do you understand the concepts behind the Supply and Demand theory? If Demand for Isotopes increases a thousand or more times over, do you suppose that the price of Isotopes would increase in response? While giving everyone Jump Drives might seem like it is making the game smaller, keeping them relatively short range, perhaps even shorter than current would go a long way to at least making them a non arbitrary means of travel. And without a gate network connecting the entire galaxy, it is entirely possible you could strand yourself in a constellation that has no supply of fuel. |
Deva Blackfire
Viziam
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Posted - 2009.11.18 19:56:00 - [ 30]
Originally by: Anubis Xian
WTZ is bad because it reduces the possibility of engagements that were already relatively badly designed. It also reduces the need for strategic thinking due to a limited need for logistical planning and execution. Which leads into the problem with most of the space in EvE. It's empty. Why? Because there is no point in using it when you can just pass through on the way to much better systems. Gone are the days when mediocre star systems had a local population.
And how would removing WTZ make people populate those systems exactly? People would still pass them for better ones, it would just take them more time. Quote:
jump drive idea
Idea could have worked but again: we have what we have and massive overhaul will never happen. Thats why all you and me can propose is minor tweaks to system. WTZ was not overhaul, it was tweak. Removing gates is massive overhaul. And as added bonus - it again provides same issues as your WTZ issues listed above. There would be absolutely no reason to stay in crap systems. Those systems would serve only as some mid-way ones which people would enter and exit asap. Quote:
Do you understand the concepts behind the Supply and Demand theory?
If Demand for Isotopes increases a thousand or more times over, do you suppose that the price of Isotopes would increase in response?
FYI: demand for isotopes just decreased by factor of hundreds (bye bye POS-sov connection). So drop here, gain there - still dont see much of a difference. Plus if isotopes rised too much (about 10x current prices) it would be VERY lucrative to mine ice in empire instead of doing LV4's. Thats why price of isotopes will always remain stable - due to your supply vs demand. Increase demand = prices rise = more poeple mine = increased supply = prices go back = prices stabilize. Quote:
While giving everyone Jump Drives might seem like it is making the game smaller, keeping them relatively short range, perhaps even shorter than current would go a long way to at least making them a non arbitrary means of travel.
But it doesnt remove the issue you had with WTZ: empty systems. All it does it reinforces it because there will be systems people will never visit. Quote:
And without a gate network connecting the entire galaxy, it is entirely possible you could strand yourself in a constellation that has no supply of fuel.
Im quite sure this gameplay idea works decently already. its called w-space. To sum up - your ideas could work or maybe couldnt. You will prolly never know as im quite sure ccp will never overhaul them. So its only theorycrafting. As is my "jump ship change" idea above. |
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