| Author |
Topic |
Razzor Wire |
Posted - 2009.11.17 15:11:00 - [ 1]
When I first started eve what attracted me too eve was BIG isk and there was several ways too make BIG isk. Is it worth building anything when ccp is taxing everyone too death and freighters are selling for 630mil and the resources are worth 10x the amount that take too build a freighters.
I'll use a freighter as an example it takes over 100mil in trit too build a freighter. Trit is selling for up too 3.0 per unit how can ppl sell freighters for 630mil to 700mil. Plus the market in the last year is becoming saturated with alot of goods.
The market value does not reflect the effort it takes too build and produce the goods too sustain people who build these items. |
Naga Elohim
Amarr
The Reformed
Bondage Patrol |
Posted - 2009.11.17 15:43:00 - [ 2]
1. Buy Freighters on market for 630-700mil
2. Reprocess said freighters
3. ??????
4. Profit! |
CCP StevieSG
 |
Posted - 2009.11.17 15:45:00 - [ 3]
Moved to market discussion from EVE General. |
Julian Koll
The Kollektive |
Posted - 2009.11.17 15:55:00 - [ 4]
Great, not only do we get our very own 'why is there competition when all profits should be mine' whine threads but also get those from the other forums moved here. |
Dzil
Caldari
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
The Fourth District |
Posted - 2009.11.17 16:08:00 - [ 5]
WTB MD veto system. |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2009.11.17 16:35:00 - [ 6]
Edited by: Akita T on 18/11/2009 01:46:59 Originally by: Razzor Wire
I'll use a freighter as an example it takes over 100mil in trit too build a freighter. Trit is selling for up too 3.0 per unit how can ppl sell freighters for 630mil to 700mil. Plus the market in the last year is becoming saturated with alot of goods. The market value does not reflect the effort it takes too build and produce the goods too sustain people who build these items.
Let's see... looking at an OBELISK, manufacturing with ME:1 freighter print and ME:2 capital component prints, everything with PE:1 on them... Capital Propulsion Engine 16 x Tritanium 425057 Pyerite 102686 Mexallon 39055 Isogen 6452 Nocxium 1962 Zydrine 281 Megacyte 141 Capital Armor Plates 15 x Tritanium 440021 Pyerite 103340 Mexallon 40292 Isogen 6611 Nocxium 1991 Zydrine 317 Megacyte 142 Capital Cargo Bay 84 x Tritanium 813659 Pyerite 67104 Mexallon 22892 Isogen 3259 Nocxium 928 Zydrine 133 Megacyte 0 30 Capital Construction Parts 53 x Tritanium 361033 Pyerite 87212 Mexallon 35088 Isogen 4747 Nocxium 1423 Zydrine 250 Megacyte 98 TOTALS Tritanium 94,723,023 Pyerite 12,005,273 Mexallon 4,447,749 Isogen 635,175 Nocxium 186,739 Zydrine 29,220 Megacyte 7,577 10,097 Manufacture slot usage : 22.4 manufacture slot days for components + 10.6 days for ship = 33 days of manufacture slot usage from scratch to full ship, at a maximum, if you're not a complete idiot to manufacture capships and cap components with PE:0 prints ; probably less than a month overall. Total cost of minerals at current Jita prices : somewhere around 560 570 mil ISK.Obelisk market price : around 670 mil ISK. Potential manufacture profit : 110 100 mil ISK. 100 mil ISK * 10 manufacture slots - taxes and fees / less than a month with decent PE levels = little under 1 bil ISK/month from manufacturing and selling Obelisks from scratch. And manufacturing freighters is not exactly a very lucrative market right now. TL;DR -> OP should at least learn to use showinfo and a pocket calculator. |
Julian Koll
The Kollektive |
Posted - 2009.11.17 17:05:00 - [ 7]
Originally by: Akita T
Edited by: Akita T on 17/11/2009 16:37:30
Originally by: Razzor Wire
I'll use a freighter as an example it takes over 100mil in trit too build a freighter. Trit is selling for up too 3.0 per unit how can ppl sell freighters for 630mil to 700mil. Plus the market in the last year is becoming saturated with alot of goods. The market value does not reflect the effort it takes too build and produce the goods too sustain people who build these items.
Let's see... looking at an OBELISK, manufacturing with ME:1 freighter print and ME:2 capital component prints, everything with PE:1 on them...
Capital Propulsion Engine 16 x
Tritanium 425057
Pyerite 102686
Mexallon 39055
Isogen 6452
Nocxium 1962
Zydrine 281
Megacyte 141
Capital Armor Plates 15 x
Tritanium 440021
Pyerite 103340
Mexallon 40292
Isogen 6611
Nocxium 1991
Zydrine 317
Megacyte 142
Capital Cargo Bay 84 x
Tritanium 813659
Pyerite 67104
Mexallon 22892
Isogen 3259
Nocxium 928
Zydrine 133
Megacyte 0
Capital Construction Parts 53 x
Tritanium 361033
Pyerite 87212
Mexallon 35088
Isogen 4747
Nocxium 1423
Zydrine 250
Megacyte 98
TOTALS
Tritanium 94,723,023
Pyerite 12,005,273
Mexallon 4,447,749
Isogen 635,175
Nocxium 186,739
Zydrine 29,220
Megacyte 7,577
Manufacture slot usage : 22.4 manufacture slot days for components + 10.6 days for ship = 33 days of manufacture slot usage from scratch to full ship, at a maximum, if you're not a complete idiot to manufacture capships and cap components with PE:0 prints ; probably less than a month overall.
Total cost of minerals at current Jita prices : somewhere around 560 mil ISK.
Obelisk market price : around 670 mil ISK.
Potential manufacture profit : 110 mil ISK.
110 mil ISK * 10 manufacture slots - taxes and fees = aprox 1 bil ISK/month from manufacturing and selling Obelisks from scratch.
And manufacturing freighters is not exactly a very lucrative market right now.
TL;DR -> OP should at least learn to use showinfo and a pocket calculator.
I did some similar math for carrier production today, and was quite suprised that when you build from BPO you get best case return rates of around 7% due to the immense amount of capital locked in the blueprints. When i now look at your Obelisk calculation i dont see it having a higher return. You did not by chance did the math on ROI considering ISK locked in BPO? Just being interested in this cause i kinda dont understand why people settle for those kind of return rates. (The easier explanation beeing as so often that they just suck at math, but thats no news) |
Dethmourne Silvermane
Gallente
Origin.
Black Legion. |
Posted - 2009.11.17 17:07:00 - [ 8]
Suspicion aroused
OP posted elsewhere to
avoid being pwnt |
Cheeba Don
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Morsus Mihi |
Posted - 2009.11.17 17:12:00 - [ 9]
Edited by: Cheeba Don on 17/11/2009 17:13:08 Originally by: Julian Koll
... (The easier explanation beeing as so often that they just suck at math, but thats no news)
While MD frequenters may have a rough idea what 'return rates' means and be handy with mental maths, there is a stunning number of people who get into a business 'because it sounds cool'. Alot of people see capital construction as 'elite manufacturing' and think its pretty cool to tell girls in bars, 'hey, i build carriers.' |
Dretzle Omega
Caldari
Global Economy Experts |
Posted - 2009.11.17 17:26:00 - [ 10]
Edited by: Dretzle Omega on 17/11/2009 17:26:59 Originally by: Julian Koll
and was quite suprised that when you build from BPO you get best case return rates of around 7% due to the immense amount of capital locked in the blueprints.
Akita isn't talking Return On Investment. He's calculating pure profit from components --> end product, I believe. That is, sell price - cost of components - cost to manufacture = profit. That's the real profit. Return on Investment, that is, profit you are making compared to investment put into it, is a different calculation, and not what the OP was complaining about. |
Julian Koll
The Kollektive |
Posted - 2009.11.17 17:32:00 - [ 11]
Originally by: Dretzle Omega
Edited by: Dretzle Omega on 17/11/2009 17:26:59
Originally by: Julian Koll
and was quite suprised that when you build from BPO you get best case return rates of around 7% due to the immense amount of capital locked in the blueprints.
Akita isn't talking Return On Investment. He's calculating pure profit from components --> end product, I believe. That is, sell price - cost of components - cost to manufacture = profit. That's the real profit.
Return on Investment, that is, profit you are making compared to investment put into it, is a different calculation, and not what the OP was complaining about.
Trust me, i understand the difference :) Also i don't care to much about the OP's question. Just seen someone did a calculation similar to one i did today on another product and assumed he also did the ROI math and was asking out of interest. There is still the possibility i made some mistake, and discussing it with someone who also did the math might help find it or proof my calculation is indeed correct. |
Liberty Eternal |
Posted - 2009.11.17 17:35:00 - [ 12]
What recession? |
Agent Known |
Posted - 2009.11.17 18:01:00 - [ 13]
|
Julian Koll
The Kollektive |
Posted - 2009.11.17 18:17:00 - [ 14]
|
Tiberizzle |
Posted - 2009.11.17 19:14:00 - [ 15]
Haiku ridicule
OP is inept tosser
Can't math the profit |
InUrJita CheckinUrPrice |
Posted - 2009.11.17 19:44:00 - [ 16]
Edited by: InUrJita CheckinUrPrice on 17/11/2009 19:46:34Winter bores MD All now reply in haikus What is with this ****? Quote:
You do realize that when you are having said BPOs in production you cant sell them? And that they cost money to obtain? And that while you have those BPOs in production that had at one point cost money, you can't work with the money on something else? That said, raw profit tells you exactly nothing about a business being worth the effort or not.
You could always use the BPOs as collateral to unlock their value, and then trade with the loaned cash. |
BlackCobalt
Coretech Industries
EVE Trade Consortium |
Posted - 2009.11.17 19:56:00 - [ 17]
Originally by: Tiberizzle
Haiku ridicule
OP is inept tosser
Can't math the profit
If thats the best that eve has too offer I don't have anything too worry about. -------------------------------------------------------------------- If you own 1 account with a hulk and mine alone you have too add all variables into the total equation not doing so would distort the final result. You have too take into account cost for a freighter bpo/bpc tax's and cost of doing the job and placing on the market as well as time into the factor. -------------------- Akita T Capital Cargo Bay 84 x Tritanium 813659 Pyerite 67104 Mexallon 22892 Isogen 3259 Nocxium 928 Zydrine 133 Megacyte 0 <---- --------------------------------------------- This is what I get from a charon bpo with no me:0/pe:0 Capital Propulsion Engine x 11 Tritanium 4532209 Pyerite 1094907 Mexallon 416427 Isogen 68794 Nocxium 20922 Zydrine 2992 Megacyte 1496 Capital Armor Plates x 14 Tritanium 5967486 Pyerite 1401470 Mexallon 546434 Isogen 689656 Nocxium 27006 Zydrine 4298 Megacyte 1918 Capital Cargo Bay x 105 Tritanium 82813815 Pyerite 6829725 Mexallon 2329950 Isogen 331695 Nocxium 94395 Zydrine 13545 Megacyte 3045 Capital Construction Parts x 51 Tritanium 17853672 Pyerite 4312764 Mexallon 1735173 Isogen 234753 Nocxium 70380 Zydrine 12342 Megacyte 4845 TOTALS Tritanium 111,167,182 x (market price) Pyerite 9,720,435 x(market price) Mexallon 5,027,984 x (market price) Isogen 724,898 x (market price) Nocxium 212,703 x (market price) Zydrine 33,177 x (market price) Megacyte 11,304 x (market price) |
EvilCheez
That's Retarded
FIGHT CLUB INC |
Posted - 2009.11.17 20:10:00 - [ 18]
Edited by: EvilCheez on 17/11/2009 20:12:03
julian was just pointing out that you would need more than 10Billion in assets to produce that 1billion in profits. 10 B that you cannot invest somewhere else and not be runnin around trying to co-ordinate 10x freighter builds.....I'd much rather spend almost no time buying 3.5billion trit, sit on it, and risk a loss.
|
Nahjar Qu'in |
Posted - 2009.11.17 20:23:00 - [ 19]
Originally by: Tiberizzle
Haiku ridicule
OP is inept tosser
Can't math the profit
Lovely. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
|
Posted - 2009.11.17 21:14:00 - [ 20]
Quote:
TL;DR -> OP should at least learn to use showinfo and a pocket calculator
Can I have a pocket Akita instead? |
Dariah Stardweller
Gallente
NO U111 Enterprises |
Posted - 2009.11.17 21:51:00 - [ 21]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Quote:
TL;DR -> OP should at least learn to use showinfo and a pocket calculator
Can I have a pocket Akita instead?
One for me too plz, I promise to feed it and walk it every day. And hugz, plenty of hugz too! \o/ |
Rudy Gnarl
Gallente
University of Caille
|
Posted - 2009.11.17 22:23:00 - [ 22]
Edited by: Rudy Gnarl on 17/11/2009 22:28:02Even with whiny OP checking forums is Entertaining, yes? The best though is that if you look at OPs post at face value looks like you could make over 100% profit: Originally by: Razzor Wire
I'll use a freighter as an example it takes over 100mil in trit too build a freighter. Trit is selling for up too 3.0 per unit how can ppl sell freighters for 630mil to 700mil. Plus the market in the last year is becoming saturated with alot of goods.
100mil x 3.0 = 300mil sell for 630mil = 330mil profit ...I completely understand that this is not the case - but the OP makes it sound as such... |
Karanth
Gallente
RONA Corporation
RONA Directorate |
Posted - 2009.11.18 08:39:00 - [ 23]
So wait a moment here.
The OP would have me believe that, since people are:
1) Stupid
2) Incapable of valuing items properly
3) Flooding the market with stuff that is undervalued
I can't make any money and CCP should fix things? They already made it so I can reprocess items at no loss of material, and I am able to relist hundreds of items thus making money with no real work.
But what do I know, making all this money and the like.
P.S. CCP isn't taxing anything you do on the market ever, hope this nugget of wisdom helps you out here.
|
Razzor Wire |
Posted - 2009.11.18 17:01:00 - [ 24]
Originally by: BlackCobalt
Originally by: Tiberizzle
Haiku ridicule
OP is inept tosser
Can't math the profit
If thats the best that eve has too offer I don't have anything too worry about. -------------------------------------------------------------------- If you own 1 account with a hulk and mine alone you have too add all variables into the total equation not doing so would distort the final result. You have too take into account cost for a freighter bpo/bpc tax's and cost of doing the job and placing on the market as well as time into the factor. -------------------- Akita T Capital Cargo Bay 84 x Tritanium 813659 Pyerite 67104 Mexallon 22892 Isogen 3259 Nocxium 928 Zydrine 133 Megacyte 0 <---- --------------------------------------------- This is what I get from a charon bpo with no me:0/pe:0 Capital Propulsion Engine x 11 Tritanium 4532209 Pyerite 1094907 Mexallon 416427 Isogen 68794 Nocxium 20922 Zydrine 2992 Megacyte 1496 Capital Armor Plates x 14 Tritanium 5967486 Pyerite 1401470 Mexallon 546434 Isogen 689656 Nocxium 27006 Zydrine 4298 Megacyte 1918 Capital Cargo Bay x 105 Tritanium 82813815 Pyerite 6829725 Mexallon 2329950 Isogen 331695 Nocxium 94395 Zydrine 13545 Megacyte 3045 Capital Construction Parts x 51 Tritanium 17853672 Pyerite 4312764 Mexallon 1735173 Isogen 234753 Nocxium 70380 Zydrine 12342 Megacyte 4845 TOTALS Tritanium 111,167,182 x (market price) Pyerite 9,720,435 x(market price) Mexallon 5,027,984 x (market price) Isogen 724,898 x (market price) Nocxium 212,703 x (market price) Zydrine 33,177 x (market price) Megacyte 11,304 x (market price)
I agree that building isn't as profitble as it used too be. With all the scams taking place 100mil isk profit seems insignificantly small compare too billions that people scam. At thos point the value of the minerals are worth more when you crunch the numbers for a job either it be a freighter or a battleship. The resources that it takes out-weigh the profit margin it takes too build. I wouldn't be surprised if ccp have been pulling isk out out eve too make up for the trillion/billion isk scams which have players holding onto there isk and in return drives the market value down. If two years ago a freighter sold at 900+mil and now sells for 630Mil we hve too ask why. |
Dzil
Caldari
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
The Fourth District |
Posted - 2009.11.18 17:42:00 - [ 25]
Scam is more profit
But worth is isk over time
Building takes few clicks. |
Karanth
Gallente
RONA Corporation
RONA Directorate |
Posted - 2009.11.18 17:55:00 - [ 26]
Originally by: Razzor Wire
I agree that building isn't as profitble as it used too be. With all the scams taking place 100mil isk profit seems insignificantly small compare too billions that people scam. At thos point the value of the minerals are worth more when you crunch the numbers for a job either it be a freighter or a battleship. The resources that it takes out-weigh the profit margin it takes too build. I wouldn't be surprised if ccp have been pulling isk out out eve too make up for the trillion/billion isk scams which have players holding onto there isk and in return drives the market value down. If two years ago a freighter sold at 900+mil and now sells for 630Mil we hve too ask why.
Gonna guess here off the top of my head: Freighters costing less due to so many idiots people building freighters and flooding the market, while having no understanding of what resources are worth and selling below cost. That, and Tritanium is down right now and is a major part of building a freighter. Combine this with CONCORD buffs and I am going to guess that less freighters are being ganked which might be more than balancing out the extra people who can fly them. Also gonna bet that more ISK is removed by CCP due to banning people and macros and people going inactive than anything else. |
Ralavina
Vivicide |
Posted - 2009.11.18 18:07:00 - [ 27]
Originally by: Razzor Wire
If two years ago a freighter sold at 900+mil and now sells for 630Mil we hve too ask why.
One factor could be that there's many more players now, so more mining / minerals coming in to the market by whatever method (mining, missions, drone regions, refining stuff etc) means the market is flooded and prices dropped accordingly. More players could mean more capable of building them - increased construction competition. That doesn't explain why there aren't proportionally more people flying them and thus the market dipping... But then also consider that you don't lose a lot of freighters. It happens but it's very rare in comparison to other ships - 90% of people who own a freighter will never lose it, I bet. In fact, I'd bet the % is even higher than that. So unlike some other ships (deimos, ishtar, zealot) they don't have a high turnover rate. As such, only so many can be sold during a week - there just aren't that many potential buyers with 600-700m isk freely available. Also those who have the BPOs researched will have been producing them for ages. As more and more join / get BPCs / BPOs all that means is there is always more and more manufacturers producing them but the buying rate is remaining relatively stable. There will be many more factors of course. |
Avandir Correus |
Posted - 2009.11.18 21:01:00 - [ 28]
Originally by: Razzor Wire
If two years ago a freighter sold at 900+mil and now sells for 630Mil we hve too ask why.
Largely a part of artificial inflation. They used to have a much higher profit margin than they do now purely because fewer people were building them, and people were willing to pay that high cost. Manufacturing costs haven't fluctuated down 30% in that time. |
Razzor Wire |
Posted - 2009.11.19 12:34:00 - [ 29]
Originally by: Avandir Correus
Originally by: Razzor Wire
If two years ago a freighter sold at 900+mil and now sells for 630Mil we hve too ask why.
Largely a part of artificial inflation. They used to have a much higher profit margin than they do now purely because fewer people were building them, and people were willing to pay that high cost. Manufacturing costs haven't fluctuated down 30% in that time.
I guess I'm just concerned about prices falling beyond the profit margin line. If freighters are selling for 630mil now what will the sell in a few month. Could it be that some of the players have BIG isk and the common player have none. And could it be that people are reflecting there fear of the real world economy crash into the game world. Maybe eve will need a stimulus package. |
Don Caetano
Minmatar |
Posted - 2009.11.19 13:20:00 - [ 30]
Originally by: Razzor Wire
I guess I'm just concerned about prices falling beyond the profit margin line. If freighters are selling for 630mil now what will the sell in a few month. Could it be that some of the players have BIG isk and the common player have none. And could it be that people are reflecting there fear of the real world economy crash into the game world. Maybe eve will need a stimulus package.
I agree that a stimulus package to troubled freighter manufacturers is necessary. The root cause of freighter manufacturers not getting the BIG isk they rightly deserve seems to be that not enough freighters are destroyed. That is not tolerable. I suggest taking direct action - take inspiration from recent Hulkageddon. Shoot as many freighters as you can. Organize campaign, set up a freighter hunting league, place bounties on guys from Red Frog. Just make sure the thing can't be traced back to you. |
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