Posted - 2009.11.13 07:11:00 - [661]

 

Ahh, this is fun. I get to see people complain about a buff, because the buff isn't big enough for them.

Hmm...Maybe I'm missing something. Do Super Carriers still get to use regular drones? What about Fighters? If the answer is yes to those 2 questions, then I have no clue why people are complaining.

But this is the EVE Forum, I should come to expect people crying. At least be glad you're not getting "buffed" by having everything else in the game nerfed!

Posted - 2009.11.13 07:34:00 - [663]

 

..so let's make a summary.

2007, Players: RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE mom is weak /emo
2008, Players: RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE mom is weak /emo
2009, Players: RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE mom /emo, CCP: we'll fix it!

Fastforward to autumn:
* Blog comes out about intentions (gives moms reasons to be on the battlefield, new capital-killing intended role, removing some logistic tools to reflect this). Fighterbombers promised as a new combat utility (and in this blog, the "new bays" are mentioned as well, to reflect how it can be used as tool to control drones).
* Extensive testing goes on SiSi. HP boost, FB introduction, Triage removed, Vat Bay removed, Warfare bonus gone. FB's in this state has a hard time killing a regular BS orbitting at a non-propulsion mod speed, it's clear they're great against capitals tho.
- All in all, both survivability, and damage bonuses, at the cost of logistic tools.

Fastforward to winter, few weeks before expansion release:
* FB's are now made weak even against stationary capitals, in addition to the weaknesses they share with regular Fighters (lag issues, smartbomb vulnerable, etc). In this state a regular sniping dread does around same damage vs an average capital, as a xMom. A higher dps dread will outperform the xMom in its new role (!).
* xMom's loses alot of both selfdefence, as well as utility, and damage, by reduced amount of total drones fielded.
* Extremely cheap production.
* To compensate for this, DCU changes are promised (but even if they are made five times as good as on TQ, it's still too weak, especially in conjunction with the now useless FB's).
- All in all, for everyone that won't field whole fleets of xMoms, they're alot weaker. Worse self-defence, worse damage, worse logistic tools, overall drop in utility, only gain is the extra buffer.

If we ignore the fact that xMom's just dropped to about half value, if we ignore the fact that they'll be spammed and bloating the big capital fights (and subsequently make 0.0 harder for smaller entities, as well as xMom-fleets countering the reason to the removal of AoE-DD). If we ignore that they still have their old weaknesses (extremely easy to tackle for few dictors, e-war immunity doesn't help vs neuts, can't dock, etc)..

..we'll end up with a ship that after years of hopeful boosts, end up in a state that actually makes them worse then the recent years. The irony is, that the 'new strength' of the xMom is the big-blob-RR role. I.e. a logistic, rather then the intented and promised capital killing one.

So basicly, we're giving up damage and utility, for extra health, cheaper hull and the introduction of a drone that in most essence won't be favoured over Fighters, except very specific occations? Congrats CCP, you've just made the Carrier 2.0!

I ignored the isk-loss- (for BPO holders, and previous buyers/builders) argument, for the sake of speculation/risk taking etc.. but those people won't be very happy either for obvious reasons.

If someone is in doubt why people emo about these potential changes, this summary should cover most of it.

Posted - 2009.11.13 07:49:00 - [665]

 

CCP why don't you listen to the people who've been paying for and playing your game so long, remember, your loyal customers? Many of these same long-time loyal customers are the ones who fly supercapitals. This to me seems like such a gross affront and betrayal of existing and previous customers to favor new members it's absurd. If you truly intend on following through with this very unreasonable change, either allow motherships currently built to retain pre-patch stats or allow us to reprocess them as Mynas said so we can recover our lost isk.

This is shameful behavior.

Posted - 2009.11.13 08:21:00 - [667]

 

Well, it is time to put my 2c in this rage feedback.

Some people know me as supercapital (MS) builder from my service. I'm building motherships for more than a year and when 1st Dominion news hit my ears with the sounds of price change (remember 1st of all you cut prices by removing Clone Vat bay from blueprints) it was okay price change was about 10%, it was bearable. And i kept silence about it.

But now, you are going to change complete class of SUPER CARRIERS (remember, you given them this name with introduction of Fighter bombers) and you said that It'll be ship which can do much damage (there was 20 figher bombers in plan) and cost it's price. With the change of price Super Carrier class ships and cutting number of active fighter bombers (if thats true) You can simply wipe out that word "Super" from class name. It really looks like you want people be close to WoW or other MMORPG which don't have much effort loss after loss in battle.

Also with such change you don't even care about people who already owns such "super" carriers. Their ISK loss will be around 5-6b (so like you said just like build cost in future) I have to agree with Mittani's and Darknesss's posts: it's fraud.
And since you probable don't want to seed so much ISK's into the game after patch as reimbursment to the pilots who own this ship (tbh it's very hard to determine who is owner for this ship when it's stored in CSMA) I've to suggest you together with such change double number of existing MS ingame (for those who is sitting in the ship, will get it seeded to the medical clone location station without fit, for those who store them in the CSMA will find there 2 ships instead of 1 (since they should lost some components in building, they gonna loose some volume too))

--
Keeper

Posted - 2009.11.13 08:40:00 - [669]

 

Stop nerfing the fing drone boats. Oh why do you hate drones so much ccp? I been there for the myrm and eos nerf, been there for the drone tracking nerf, the ishkur nerf, and now the super carrier nerf. WTF ccp? Do you not want people to use drone boats.

Whats the point of flying them if they keep on getting nerfed? I'm about to quit flying gallente because I'm sick of my primary weapon constently getting nerfed, a weapon system thats destroyable must need the hardest nerfs cus it must be overpowered when smart bombs can blow up your dps. WTF!?(TM)

Admit you hate drones ccp, how about you make all weapon systems targetable in the game? Or give drones a hp boost. Cus the constent nerf hate to the weakest dps weapon system in the game is just getting ******ed.

Carrier DPS 1750? with fighters, Super Carrier DPS 6000 DPS? with fighter bombers, Dreads 7000 DPS, Titans 10000 DPS with guns and 10000 DPS with DD total being 20000 DPS. What is wrong with this picture? WTF is up with that "shirt". Super carriers are sipose to be anti capital ships. 6000 DPS doesn't do crap to a dreads tank, dreads and carriers can tank over 10000 DPS average 15000 DPS and max about 20000 DPS. So how can a super carrier be "SUPER" or anti capital when it can't even do more dps then a dreads or carriers tank???

I don't get the huge nerf hate going around for the 2+ years I been in the game for drones. Drones are not that powerful. Mostly because they can't use damage mods. All gunboats and missile boats can out damage any drone boat dedicated to drones only.

A dedicated drone user DOES NOT use guns or have gun skills. Its silly that I can do 3 times the dps with guns that a drone boat can do dps wise. They don't need to be nerfed, they need a huge boost. To be in line with all other ships DPS. So whats the roll of a super carrier now? To tickle the enemy to death and die a epicly slow death?

Posted - 2009.11.13 08:50:00 - [671]

 

Originally by: Alxea

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Titans 10000 DPS with guns and 10000 DPS with DD total being 20000 DPS.

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Incorrect. At the same time that they nerfed xMoms, they also nerfed titans.

The DD was changed earlier from 5mins to 10 mins, giving it an average DPS of 5k. In this recent change, titans lost their 200% Per level damage bonus, and will now only do 100% per level. This brings them to roughly 5k DPS. This comparable to that of a dread.

Posted - 2009.11.13 09:02:00 - [673]

 

Edited by: sdchew on 13/11/2009 09:36:31
CCP, a couple of points from a long time EVE Player who has 5 accounts.

Firstly, What was the point of having hundreds of us, waiting hours in the SIS Queue, to get onto SIS to test the Supercarriers and provide feedback; only to have you undo all the hours upon hours of testing by implementing this change?

Secondly, I thought CCP hired an economist to ensure that game design changes did not cause problems to the economy? I last recalled it posted somewhere that there was about 400+ MOMs in TQ now. With this one change (15 bil build cost -> 6 bil), you have effectively eliminated over 4 Trillion ISK from the economy. I also recall that daily trade with a ISK value of just over 1 Trillion occurs each day on the market. Congrates, you just destroyed 10 years of economic work.

Third, at 5-6 bil per super carrier, it is dirt cheap for most alliances. 1 Titan cost about 50-60 bil and most large alliances field 2-3 Titans in a medium size engagement. Put 10-20 Supercarriers in a spider tank gang and it will be virtually impossible to put down due to EW immunity and high EHP (huge buffer tank, perfect for remote rep gangs). No need for any DCU either. 100-200 Sentries/Fighters/Fighter Drones with WTFP0WNBBQ anything. I strongly suspect EW immunity will be next on the nerf bat's target list once people start screaming that spidertanking supercarriers gang are immpossible to kill.

Next, supercapitals (Titans/Moms) have been a major investment in time and ISK for the majority of its current owners. For peeps like myself, who have been in game for 6+ years, we seen it all but this is absolutely the worst thought out idea ever. You are hurting the people who have stuck out with you. If you value the opinion of the guys who been with you since the beginning, listen up!

In addition, I can only imagine the riot which would have occurred if you had announced it at Fanfest a few weeks ago.

Lastly, for the guys who bought PLEXes/GTC for RL Cash so that you could sell them for ISKies and raise the funds to buy your MOM/SC;Well, you should have spent the money on hookers. At least it was clear who was doing the screwing and who is getting screwed.

PS: If this goes thru, I want an option to reprocess my Mom.

Posted - 2009.11.13 09:14:00 - [675]

 

Originally by: Orny

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I take ALL of yr stafff, plz contract to me!

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I think you're missing the part where they can't dock so can't contract their MS to anyone ;P

Posted - 2009.11.13 09:22:00 - [677]

 

I like these changes I can now consider getting a mom.

Also for all people that are going to rage quit.

CAN I HAVE YOUR STUFF?

Posted - 2009.11.13 09:34:00 - [679]

 

I have warned you people and you didn't listen.
Now suffer.

Posted - 2009.11.13 09:43:00 - [681]

 

In reading all these threads & holy crap its hard to keep up

A light bulb dinged in my grey matter

How about you split every single mother ship BPO into two
everyone that holds a mother ship bpo or BPC spawns a a T2 carrier bpo or bpc right next to it.

the T2 carriers is like a normal carrier except geared towards damage & not so much logistics'. break the mold a bit here make the build costs mostly t1 cap build costs of a normal carrier up them a bit to be inline with this supposed SC changes. then add some T2 mat requirements just a hand full say the cost of t2 requirements it takes to make a t2 BS.

So you now have a t2 carrier adjust the texture mess with the high slots let this t2 carrier use fighter bombers and basically keep the stat's your proposing for the MoM/SC. give it immunity to EWAR without needing siege or triage. Make it dockable... Except give these ships a 15 minute docking timer were they can still take damage. consider it the time it takes for a tug boat to drag your huge HULL into the dry dock. heck make the t2 carriers slightly faster on the flat so to negate some damage.

Now take the MoM/SC and kit it out I mean pimp it hard. torps shouldn't be hitting other torps and killing them in turn nurfin the damage. you add a new weapon to the game but seriously haven't given the numbers play time, not to mention signature and explosion velocity issues. only hard adjusting the new numbers is going to make these viable. so run the mom up another couple of percent damage wise on FB's leave it with its 25 drone control. but adjust the FB bandwidth. kit the MOM out up. remote ecm to a jam. its reactivation timer is enough to bore it owner to death before getting off a second shot. maybe even give the mom full 8 high slots and allow it to have two launcher hard points across each faction. so player can choose a touch more dps, a DCU or nut. settle the cost roughly around were it was yeah drop the cost a bit due to lack of clone and triage. Make MoM dockable but with a 20 minute waiting period for tug boat.

So now you have a solidly happy player base
if you must give everyone thats got a MoM this new T2 carrier without fittings in their clone station. now watch and see what happens
you keep your dev's happy. you keep ccp happy. you keep your players happy

T2 carriers
15% fighter/FB damage per lvl
5% resistances per lvl
2% velocity per lvl
1 extra fighter per lvl
200% drone control range
15 minute dock timer
immune to EWAR

Said race faction and ancestry have decided to shell out the inside of the logistic forward base carrier in line with SC to maximise its potential damage out put. dropping the logistical command centre like fittings and construction to make a mobile skirmisher with fighter like bombers. a massive portion of the carrier was striped of triage hard points to make way for additional bomber refitting. the massive drop in weight and excessive room has allowed engineers ways to maximise the polymers in the ships construction for better resistance this drop in weight along with the lack of command bulking has allowed mechanic's new ways of tweaking the astronautics of these behemoths making them faster in their top end. which has also resulted in the ships immunity to EWAR as the sensors and vulnerable ships computers can now be shielded from such forms of attack and stream lined.

MOM/SC
60% bonus Fighter/FB d per lvl
99% reduct remote ECM
3 drones per lvl
200% drone control range
Immune EWAR
interdiction null
20min dock timer

creo drone came up with it first but others soon followed. striping the guts of a MoM to make way for FB combined with sleeper tech to breech enemy lines. taking these mobile bases and turning them into flag ships to be feared dropping the logistic and command mods for more fire power and a bigger drone bay these ships are now formed a new class of their own "The super carrier" skipping through enemy lines to hit fast on structures & other caps. They only fear HIC's & TITANS.

Posted - 2009.11.13 09:49:00 - [683]

 

When CCP released the patch notes about changing the mom to a super carrier, at first i wasn't too happy, but then i read on and actually started to tingle inside. Fighter bombers. These awesome little things that can kill caps quick. I got so excited, I even thought about using my Nyx again. As i read on and on, it became more interesting. With titans and their new toy, SC got a hp buff. Even better. These two aspects alone, the fighter bombers, which only SC could use and the hp buff, meant me and a lot of other SC pilots might actually consider putting their SC on the field again.

Right Now, why should we bother? All they are going is a big pile of hp that can't do anything apart from look nice (unless it's the wyvern :P)

Limiting one of the special things that makes a SC unique, the use of 20 drones, i just think is actually one of the most stupidest things i've ever heard. You got me all excited CCP for using my mommy again, now it just may as well gather dust.

Get it back to 20 CCP other wise you will find people screaming titans are too over powerful, nothing can kill that. ohh wait, isn't that what we were going to use the SC for? Titan kill dread, mom kill titan, dread kill carrier etc etc. YOu really messed this one up.

Posted - 2009.11.13 09:58:00 - [685]

 

@forumpolitics:
As a non-capital-pilot i must agree its not very kind of ccp to ignore the critics even if they are ragecritics... or locking threads because of /signed "spam".
Lol?! What shall they do? Should they all post the same over and over again like the topicstarter? Oh wait: they are already posting their opinions here.

Seriously. Ppl are telling you what they think.. they are in rage and you just ignore him ... tons of sites with emo-posts with no word of ccp but "give constructive feedback".
Actually i cant really find any dev who was able to counter ppl posts with constructive feedback yet which leads me to this. They dont read it.

@coming changes:
SC will have a role but at what costs? There will be lots of SCblobs done in the near future by the big allies who can easily efford tons of them instead of using dreads to counter-blob. With the big hp boost it will be a mess.
With EW-imunity without triage/siege they are even better than dreads anyway.. why should they use dreads again? Shooting Pos? Oh wait, there is also a change with the explosion radius...
Didnt ccp actually want to stop blobbing? This is imho a blob-boost.

Ships getting nerfed and get cheaper. Ok. But around 40%? Well i dont care when its a 1billion isk ship.. but a MOM? This is more than a slap into the face. Im glad i dont have one.

Sry to say but looks like in the end ccp will do it anyway. Only listening to ccpfanboys.

"There are no critics."

Posted - 2009.11.13 10:14:00 - [687]

 

any answer from ccp yet? or is this zulupark all over again? silenceeeeeeeeeee

Posted - 2009.11.13 10:21:00 - [689]

 

Originally by: CCP Navigator

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Hello everyone,

Before you all start getting on Stevie's back over her post let me just clarify that you are well within your rights to use this thread to post constructive feedback. Posting flaming or trolling comments is not in keeping with the forum rules and any such posts may result in a warning or ban.

No one is saying not to express your opinion or provide feedback, but please do it within the rules of this forum. Please also note that the Community team do not make game design decisions and nor will we comment on them.

Thank you.

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well can you go get the **** that put this together and get him to explane wtf was going through his brain cell