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SXYGeeK
Gallente
do you
Posted - 2009.11.18 23:33:00 - [91]
 

Ok, some more observations from today...

There still seems to be some bug with viewing the index level at the Hub on sisi right now.
most of my characters look at the hub and see level 0 index and no progress.
however, if I load up a character I haven't used yet I see the real index level, but then i go back and check and it is level 0 again.
very difficult to see what is going on with the index.

I was able to get the military index up to level 1 and 12% (though un-natural means)
I got a Pirate Magnate 1 installed and it shows online
However the anomalies that it should spawn are not showing up yet. (from speaking with another tester it seems they require a downtime to take affect)

so now I am concerned that the rate of decay will cause me to lose the level 1 index before downtime.
from the blog today we expect a level lost in approximately 4 days, that's 25% a day, or perhaps 1% an hour.
now does that decay occur all the time, or just when we are not using the system???
I have been ratting it up in my system to try to keep the index up till downtime, However I have in fact lost 1% while sitting here ratting everything I could!!!
perhaps I'm just not seeing things right because of the bug, but in an hour it went down from 12% to 11%, at this rate I'm likely to lose level 1 before downtime :(

But more importantly, if I'm right and it is decaying while I am ratting, and there simply aren't enough belts here to kill enough rats fast enough to match that decay, then it is truly impossible to upgrade these small belt count systems.

@CCP Sisyphus!
Thanks for your answers here so far M8, I know there are tweaks to the indexes in the works, but should we really be seeing decay while we are using the system ? shouldn't the index not start to decay until at least a brief period of inactivity? or is it sorta like a Quota that we have to earn so much index to keep up with the decay?
this is all done in my system, your familiar with by now :P, X5-UME, SXyGeeK and Castryon Merk.

need to head for home and hang out with the kids a bit, but i'll try some more a little later tonight.

SXYGeeK
Gallente
do you
Posted - 2009.11.18 23:53:00 - [92]
 

update before I head out, index is down to lvl1 and 10%.
It has been dropping approximatly 1% per hour, while I have been in the system activly ratting...

Cheekything
Gallente
Black Lance
Posted - 2009.11.19 00:51:00 - [93]
 

Originally by: SXYGeeK
while I have been in the system activly ratting...



*flails* this better be a bug ugh

Jettar Aradan
Posted - 2009.11.19 06:37:00 - [94]
 

It sounds like the index is based on a fixed amount of activity as opposed to being scaled based on system size/belt count. While there are other reasons to control a system, that makes me wonder if problems like this will really add to the "swiss cheese" effect people are expecting. Some systems will just be left empty because they literally CAN'T be upgraded.

I hope thats not the case and this is just a part of the testing process.

SXYGeeK
Gallente
do you
Posted - 2009.11.19 07:31:00 - [95]
 

Checking back now it is at some immeasurable % just above lvl1, judging off the 1% per hour rule of thumb it should be around 2%, it wont make it till downtime. :(

If any kind BH or dev would care to bump it up over lvl 1 again before DT I would, how you say, luv u long time...

Kleranna
Minmatar
Hitodama Industrial Cooperative Operations
Manifest Destiny.
Posted - 2009.11.19 07:56:00 - [96]
 

Originally by: Jettar Aradan
It sounds like the index is based on a fixed amount of activity as opposed to being scaled based on system size/belt count. While there are other reasons to control a system, that makes me wonder if problems like this will really add to the "swiss cheese" effect people are expecting. Some systems will just be left empty because they literally CAN'T be upgraded.

I hope thats not the case and this is just a part of the testing process.


This. The work needed to increase the military/industry level should scale somewhat with the number of belts in the system. Maybe extra belts could be added to 0.0 systems which have very few.




HeliosGal
Caldari
Posted - 2009.11.19 11:03:00 - [97]
 

in systems with few belts u will have to run the anamolies which in turn generate a lot of npcs. Turn those over and youll get youre activity up

SXYGeeK
Gallente
do you
Posted - 2009.11.19 16:42:00 - [98]
 

Originally by: HeliosGal
in systems with few belts u will have to run the anamolies which in turn generate a lot of npcs. Turn those over and youll get youre activity up


except there simply arent enough anomolie spawns without the upgrade.
you don't get unlimited anomolies till level 1, it's getting there that is the problem in these smaller systems.

Jettar Aradan
Posted - 2009.11.19 17:54:00 - [99]
 

Originally by: SXYGeeK
Originally by: HeliosGal
in systems with few belts u will have to run the anamolies which in turn generate a lot of npcs. Turn those over and youll get youre activity up


except there simply arent enough anomolie spawns without the upgrade.
you don't get unlimited anomolies till level 1, it's getting there that is the problem in these smaller systems.


Right, it sounds like you made progress while you had the anomalies but even though you could clear out all the belts for hours there was STILL a loss of progress, enough that you couldn't even keep the lvl 1 you achived long enough for it to take effect at downtime. Thats a serious problem in smaller systems, and I wonder how much larger a system would have to be for it to stabalize. At the very least consistent ratting should hold a system stable even if it doesn't add to the index.



SXYGeeK
Gallente
do you
Posted - 2009.11.19 18:08:00 - [100]
 

an update,
It apears that my system was still level 1 when downtime hit, and my anomlies went active, sometime after it droped down to level0 and 96% be the time i got on a few hours ago.

but the anomolies seems to enable or disable at downtime, not with the online/offline of the upgrade or ticking of the index level. so i still have them running.

I quickly ran 6 of the anomlies and am back at level 1 and an immesurable % above that.
best guess ATM is that an hours work with a single charecter will get you about 2% increase. I'll refine my numbers as i play with it some more.

Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
Posted - 2009.11.19 21:03:00 - [101]
 

Edited by: Gnulpie on 19/11/2009 21:06:57
I am pretty sure that the display of the changes in the indices at the ihub is bugged - I can't prove it though. But ALWAYS when I look at the ihub I see that the military and industrial "value has gone up today". But no only was there in the system, it ALWAYS needs to load first before I can enter it.

Besides - that message is pretty bonkers as I mentioned earlier already. It should specifically tell you the amount of time since the last update of the index/display. The message should be "Value changed by xx% during the last 20 minutes/1 hour/12 hours/1 day/7 days."


Originally by: SXYGeeK
best guess ATM is that an hours work with a single charecter will get you about 2% increase.
I did some 1 1/2 hours ratting a couple of times and the index didn't move noticable - at level 0 system development. The only thing I saw was the green arrow that the value went up, but that message is also displayed for industry and I didn't do any mining there. No change on the bar nor any % display.

SXYGeeK
Gallente
do you
Posted - 2009.11.19 22:58:00 - [102]
 

Crying or Very sadthis is just wierd.
I got a friend out here helping run anomolies as well, and we've just been killen em.
I've been through at least 20 anomolies today.

since my last post i watched the index crash back down to level 0 and 96%, then it came back up to level 1 and 5%, and now after running another doezen anomlies it's back down to level 0 and 94%.

I realy can not make heads or tails of what the index is doing...
maybe the display on the hub is just totaly bugged.

SXYGeeK
Gallente
do you
Posted - 2009.11.19 23:08:00 - [103]
 

now checking back again and it shows level 1, no mesurable % above that.

realy I seem to be just barely keeping up with decay, making no progress at all, and confident that i will lose the upgrades tonight due to decay.

CCP Sisyphus


C C P
Posted - 2009.11.20 10:20:00 - [104]
 

Just a FYI.
The numbers are changing slightly on sisi in the next patch.
To get to level one should require some dedication from a couple of players.
to get to level 2 should need 4 or 5 people living in that system.

Keeping level 1 without installing upgrades will be very challenging.

also - the Hub displays for indices should be fixed now.

GMUGRA
Gallente
Seven Crafts
LEM Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.20 11:51:00 - [105]
 

Originally by: CCP Sisyphus
Just a FYI.
The numbers are changing slightly on sisi in the next patch.
To get to level one should require some dedication from a couple of players.
to get to level 2 should need 4 or 5 people living in that system.

Keeping level 1 without installing upgrades will be very challenging.

also - the Hub displays for indices should be fixed now.


And how many people need to have for level 3?

HeliosGal
Caldari
Posted - 2009.11.20 11:55:00 - [106]
 

ccp dont want much activity in 00 still so getting past a level 2 upgrade is going to be very very tough indeed

Zibu 81
Tribal Liberation Force
Posted - 2009.11.20 11:58:00 - [107]
 

Originally by: CCP Sisyphus
Just a FYI.
The numbers are changing slightly on sisi in the next patch.
To get to level one should require some dedication from a couple of players.
to get to level 2 should need 4 or 5 people living in that system.

Keeping level 1 without installing upgrades will be very challenging.

also - the Hub displays for indices should be fixed now.


So we've heard that lvl 5 CA's should be on par with lvl 4 empire missions, and now this?

So unless you get your whole alliance into one system and farm it 23/7 you're better off staying in empire as you wpn't be able to get level 5 upgrade? Is that what you're trying to tell us?

And how is getting level 1 supposed to happen if most systems without an upgrade can only support 1 player?

HeliosGal
Caldari
Posted - 2009.11.20 12:32:00 - [108]
 

and therein lies youre issue it will still be short of empire level 4 missions

Angus Withers
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2009.11.20 20:05:00 - [109]
 

What worries me is whether or not running only the top tier anomalies will be enough to support a level 5 upgrade once you actually go through the grind of getting it. Once a level 5 upgrade is installed, my guess is that only 3-5 players will be able to simultaneously run the anomalies with decent BS spawns and earnings potential. As things are now, it seems possible that might not be enough to maintain a high index level. With level 1 we are killing frigs and cruisers pretty quickly and having a difficult time moving the index. The anomalies with multiple BS spawns will probably take longer and a single person will likely be killing fewer rats over the same period time. Will this be a problem or do better rats equal a bigger index boost?

This is a lot like standings grinding for missions right now. You have to waste time killing a bunch of frigs and cruisers over and over again before getting the good stuff. At least your faction standings don't decay over time. I've always felt life in 0.0 should be a step above life in empire. This just feels like the same old thing. It's actually even worse since multiple people are forced to go through it and you can't leave the area for very long without losing your work. "Sorry, the ops this weekend are cancelled due to our index level falling, please go rat, TS mandatory."

-Angus

Pointfive
Posted - 2009.11.20 22:05:00 - [110]
 

Edited by: Pointfive on 20/11/2009 22:16:56
So Ive been messing around with the level one upgrade today. Some things i have noticed.

The level one anomalies are all cruiser / frigate spawns. Not worth it over belt rats.

There seems to be issues with them re spawning. Sometimes they will keep re spawning and things go fine. But then sometimes they will get stuck and not despawn or spawn any new ones. Seems to happen in waves. This could be a pretty big issue.
Right now i have 5 anomalies all sitting empty, preventing anything new from coming.

The military index seems to matter much more on number of npcs killed and not necessarily size. Running the anomalies raises the index much faster than belt ratting, even though the bounties earned are much lower.

Moon Kitten
GoonWaffe
Posted - 2009.11.20 22:40:00 - [111]
 

Originally by: Pointfive
Edited by: Pointfive on 20/11/2009 22:16:56
So Ive been messing around with the level one upgrade today. Some things i have noticed.

The level one anomalies are all cruiser / frigate spawns. Not worth it over belt rats.

There seems to be issues with them re spawning. Sometimes they will keep re spawning and things go fine. But then sometimes they will get stuck and not despawn or spawn any new ones. Seems to happen in waves. This could be a pretty big issue.
Right now i have 5 anomalies all sitting empty, preventing anything new from coming.

The military index seems to matter much more on number of npcs killed and not necessarily size. Running the anomalies raises the index much faster than belt ratting, even though the bounties earned are much lower.

we are currently experiencing the same issue i.e. anomalies have stopped respawning in our system

SXYGeeK
Gallente
do you
Posted - 2009.11.20 22:56:00 - [112]
 

Originally by: CCP Sisyphus
Just a FYI.
The numbers are changing slightly on sisi in the next patch.
To get to level one should require some dedication from a couple of players.
to get to level 2 should need 4 or 5 people living in that system.

Keeping level 1 without installing upgrades will be very challenging.

also - the Hub displays for indices should be fixed now.


excelent, I see another update today, I'll play some over the weekend.

Thanks, and enjoy your weekend Sisyphus!

Gramtar
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.11.20 23:10:00 - [113]
 

As Moon Kitten noted, we have 5 cleared anomalies and nothing new spawning. Military Index is Lev 3 + 30%, with level 2 upgrade installed and online.

I noticed another, significant design problem with the approach to using large numbers of anomalies. You scan, and get, say 4 results from a planet. You warp to each in turn, and find 3 cleared and 1 being run. You've just wasted 5+ min finding 4 signatures to add to your ignore list.

When do these anomalies despawn? Two hours after being cleared? Longer? What if one or several small, frig/cruiser npc's are left up and just BS killed?

Think of how many CA's are up in your system, and multiply that number by 3 (or more). So with max upgrade you're looking at 60 signatures, 2 out of 3 are already cleared. This is the problem with concentrating people in one system. The more people/anomalies, the more time you'll spend warping to results that have nothing in them.

This is exactly why a ratter would rather have an 8 belt system to themselves, than share a 20 belt system with one other person. You waste less time warping around to nothing.

SXYGeeK
Gallente
do you
Posted - 2009.11.20 23:33:00 - [114]
 

Originally by: Gramtar
As Moon Kitten noted, we have 5 cleared anomalies and nothing new spawning. Military Index is Lev 3 + 30%, with level 2 upgrade installed and online.

I noticed another, significant design problem with the approach to using large numbers of anomalies. You scan, and get, say 4 results from a planet. You warp to each in turn, and find 3 cleared and 1 being run. You've just wasted 5+ min finding 4 signatures to add to your ignore list.

When do these anomalies despawn? Two hours after being cleared? Longer? What if one or several small, frig/cruiser npc's are left up and just BS killed?

Think of how many CA's are up in your system, and multiply that number by 3 (or more). So with max upgrade you're looking at 60 signatures, 2 out of 3 are already cleared. This is the problem with concentrating people in one system. The more people/anomalies, the more time you'll spend warping to results that have nothing in them.

This is exactly why a ratter would rather have an 8 belt system to themselves, than share a 20 belt system with one other person. You waste less time warping around to nothing.


this may be a new issue with the patch today, i have not had any trouble with the respawnign of anomolies in my system , but i dont have them today as i wasn't able to keep the level 1 i had.

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2009.11.21 08:26:00 - [115]
 

Originally by: Gramtar

I noticed another, significant design problem with the approach to using large numbers of anomalies. You scan, and get, say 4 results from a planet. You warp to each in turn, and find 3 cleared and 1 being run. You've just wasted 5+ min finding 4 signatures to add to your ignore list.

When do these anomalies despawn? Two hours after being cleared? Longer? What if one or several small, frig/cruiser npc's are left up and just BS killed?

Think of how many CA's are up in your system, and multiply that number by 3 (or more). So with max upgrade you're looking at 60 signatures, 2 out of 3 are already cleared. This is the problem with concentrating people in one system. The more people/anomalies, the more time you'll spend warping to results that have nothing in them.

This is exactly why a ratter would rather have an 8 belt system to themselves, than share a 20 belt system with one other person. You waste less time warping around to nothing.


The "warp to a already occupied anomaly" can be easily fixed:
have all the people doing them in system fleet up. That way you will see the location of all the other members of the fleet on the system display. Comparing that with the anomaly positions and you will find the unoccupied anomalies.

In theory the anomalies should despawn as soon as you warp away.
I had problems with empty anomalies (and I am sure that at least in one instance no one had been there as it was shortly after DT) in Dominion.

My hypothesis is that there has been some change in the composition of the inital spawns but the rats aren't jet implemented in the current version, so you find a empty location and the encounter is never triggered.

Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
Posted - 2009.11.21 12:04:00 - [116]
 

Just ratted for about 40 minutes in the belts and the military index went from 0% of level 0 to 27% of level 0.

Now let's see if i can push it further up and how fast it goes down again.

30 minutes of mining in a hulk didn't change the industry index a single point. Still 0% of level 0. I didn't deplete any roids though.

HeliosGal
Caldari
Posted - 2009.11.21 12:14:00 - [117]
 

the big issue here is that about 30% of anaomolies have issues sometiems with not despawning drone ones and factional ones alike. They should vanish as soon as all rats killed but not all do .....

this needs fixing before patch otherwise it will be choas

Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
Posted - 2009.11.21 17:32:00 - [118]
 

Originally by: CCP Sisyphus
also - the Hub displays for indices should be fixed now.


Not sure.

I ratted for 1 hour, the index was up to 60% from almost scratch.

Then I made 2 hours pause. After that I ratted for maybe another hour. Then a small pause and the index was down to around 20%.

The intervals on the index are also not synchronised with the bounty collecting display on the wallet. I got several bounty payouts but the index didn't move at all during that time.

And now the green arrow is missing indicating that the index went up. Or is that intentional?

Gramtar
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.11.21 22:56:00 - [119]
 

@Sisyphus:

Couple problems today:
1) everyone shows the military index at different levels. Some show ours at level 4, while I show it at 3. Can't install lev 4 upgrades. The indicator arrow shows its gone down today, while its gone up about 30% since I logged in.

edit: after just sitting in space a while typing this (10 min), the index came up. While I have starbase roles in my corp, I currently lack station management roles. Should be able to install upgrades after I get that sorted.

2) warping to a bookmark at the i-hub at 0 causes a freighter to bounce away at 5 km/sec

3) warping to a bookmark at the i-hub at 10 causes a friehgter to bounce away at 2.5 km/sec

4) warping to a bookmark at the i-hub at 20 lands a freighter at about 7 km away

5) We had lev 2 installed before downtime, and anomalies seem to be spawning correctly today. The best one hour period I had was <10M isk in bounties. That's equivalent to ratting in a crappy truesec system. For GoonSwarm, we'll likely be able to raise military levels quickly through ratting (which averages 15M-20M / hour - more in high belt count systems). For those without perfect truesec, it's going to be quite a slog, I think. Most spawns at lev 2 are 3 waves of cruisers/frigs. While these are a breeze for an experienced player, newbies will have some difficulty with the high resist ships (as high as 50% of spawns in some of the anomalies). A handful at lev 2 do spawn between 5-8 BS with bounties between 460-550K or so.

Looking forward to testing levels 3-5, when / if we can get the index up and upgrades installed.

Loot is nonexistent on these ships. Worse than mission wrecks, in my experience.

I didn't test salvage much, but in the 15 or so wrecks I did salvage, the quality seemed comparable to belt rats. Mission wreck salvage is much worse in my experience.

Peryner
University of Caille
Posted - 2009.11.21 23:30:00 - [120]
 

instead of over time maybe you could make it work like a stock system?

Where as in ...omg I'm a genius...

Ok, so everyday all activity is tallied, Then it goes up or down based on total activity. That way it doesn't go down because of a hour of not ratting or such.

Everyday the index goes up based on how much value was mined/ratted/such forth.

Then show these numbers like you would on a stock market. Now tie these numbers (all of the systems owned together) right into alliance info pages! NOW! make it so the alliances can sell stock! So to help pay the bill players anywhere can "invest" in an alliance they believe is going to increase in value.

Then the players can buy and sell these stocks whenever they wish at the price at the end of day.

That would be massive Surprised


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