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HeliosGal
Caldari
Posted - 2009.11.27 12:04:00 - [121]
 

The calc needs to faction in implant mods and ammo etc.

CCP will agree if its suis em. A high 2500 dps ship should have very short range.

Blaster tracking and spec training seem to remain the issue.

Trimarks are one of the best rigs invented

Qui Shon
Posted - 2009.11.27 12:20:00 - [122]
 

A 2500dps ship should be a crappy dread. BS should never have that kind of firepower.


IMO, 37.5% boost with 125mbit/s is the way to go CCP. That makes it worthwhile enough (at least for me) to buy one Vindi instead of two Navy Megas, without making it overpowered. Yes the eft dps number is still high, but tracking and range will reduce the effective number substantially. Also, like was pointed out to me, on paper the CNR can get similar eft-warrior numbers, but it too has issues to deal with, like explosion vel/rad.

HeliosGal
Caldari
Posted - 2009.11.27 12:32:00 - [123]
 

Should be a dodgy dread but the nightmare-bhaalgorn fit this bill quite easily and they have the firepower for small pos takedowns.

the 37.5% boost and 125m bit seems reasonable

Lylu
Posted - 2009.11.27 15:53:00 - [124]
 

the calculations become to difficultt, if u take faction and imps... cause u need to compare it to others...

with the 37,5% and 125m drones, it is still like a navy mega... if u really want something different do the changes above.

Even with 250% dmg boost the vindi will loose vs a bhaal and some others... so in firepower it would have the best, but just at 13km range. Compare it to a nightmare with insane dps at around 40k, so i think the vindi should have more firepower, cause nightmare also has some utility highslots, so i dont think the 1300-1500 dps at 13k are not overpowered.

Nightmare can do 1070 dps at 45k.
CNR with Torps, 1420 dps at 35k+, with a 145k Ehp tank, no scram but mwd + cap injector ofc.

And the vindi wouldnt be a solopwnmobile, cause it does not have drones to kill small stuff and really relay on its cap, so it can easily be neuted/jammed and killed.

It would be just a facemelting Bs, as suggested from CCP Cool.

@ Qui Shon: that setup is just stupid..., dont u thought of putting this setup on a navy mega? would be better i suggest... with a second plate Wink


Qui Shon
Posted - 2009.11.27 16:38:00 - [125]
 

Edited by: Qui Shon on 27/11/2009 16:40:13
Originally by: Lylu
@ Qui Shon: that setup is just stupid..., dont u thought of putting this setup on a navy mega? would be better i suggest... with a second plate Wink


Stupid eh? Yet, it's better then any active tank. Except maybe for sustained lowsec gatecamping, which I suspect is what you want to do. Why else would you want an active tank? You already have both Kronos and Hype for that.

Navy? Bah, I'll take 300 extra dps over a few measly ehp any day. As long as I feel can afford it, that is.

Look, it doesn't matter in the least how well it would perform with ONE magstab, CCP will never, NEVER give one BS potentially 2500 dps, in a fit that is actually quite realistic. Sure, I'd be all over it, both for PvP and PvE, despite that Vindicator prices would jump to 5bn, but it'll *never* happen. Try to be at least remotely reasonable.

Lylu
Posted - 2009.11.28 02:28:00 - [126]
 

well,

2076 dps with CNR without overheating is possible, at 30km range, so i dont see the point why the vindi should not get 1500 dps at 13k range...

it is all just calculating what we do here, u have no tank and 3 magstabs, then u need nice dmg ofc, but if u want a good setup for small engagements with an active tank u need that dmg... and i think vindi souldnt be able to buffer tank...

it is an facemelting active tank bs Twisted Evil!!!!

Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2009.11.28 02:53:00 - [127]
 

It's no more active tanking than a megathon.

If you need an active tank, the hyperion does it 20% better.

And given how pathetic active tanking is these days (beyond tanking sentries long enough to gang random haulers/cruisers, or pve), I'm not sure who in there right mind would.

Lylu
Posted - 2009.11.28 14:41:00 - [128]
 

navy thron fullfills this role already, vindi needs a different role.

and in small engagements active tanking is still not that bad.

Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2009.11.28 15:06:00 - [129]
 

Originally by: Lylu
navy thron fullfills this role already, vindi needs a different role.

and in small engagements active tanking is still not that bad.
Like active tanking? Which the Navy thron would also be better at doing? (and the kronos, and the Hyperion)...


37.5% damage bonus and 150m3 drone bay will be fine.

DreamSphere
Posted - 2009.11.28 18:38:00 - [130]
 

I totally agree 37.5% damage bonus makes the role of the ship fit the ccp "face melting roll" and seperates it from the kronos

Lylu
Posted - 2009.11.29 13:34:00 - [131]
 

it should do it,s main dmg from blasters... and it becomes more like the navy thron with more m of drone space, then it is nearly no difference between them, cause thron have one more lowslot and a utility high.

reduce the drone to 25m or 0 and increase dmg, some small side changes, increase speed a bit, cause armor rigs reduce your speed and u need to get into range and increase armor and hull a bit. And Vindi should do 1500dmg without imps, with a t2 fit, just let us test it on sisi Twisted Evil.

HeliosGal
Caldari
Posted - 2009.11.29 13:41:00 - [132]
 

So one more lowslot than the vindicator and a ulity hight slot, perhaps a high slot bonus to Remote armour repping ?

The drone bay is fine but make it a racial gal drone bonus. More speed less armour. It is a minmatar hybrid after all

Lylu
Posted - 2009.11.29 13:50:00 - [133]
 

the gal bonus is for blasters, i think there should be a blasterboat who just does it, s dmg from blasters and not drones... and decreasing armor on an armor tank bs Confused

Marlona Sky
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2009.11.29 18:11:00 - [134]
 

Edited by: Marlona Sky on 30/11/2009 01:13:33
CCP, there is still time. Increase the damage to 37.5% and give it 25m3 more drone bay. Everyone wants it!!! Ok, well maybe not everyone but seriously, it would not make it over powered or anything and would make training to minmitar bs 5 worth the cost of the ship and stuff.

I beg you. Crying or Very sad

Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2009.11.29 18:22:00 - [135]
 

So 100 dps more blaster damage in exchange 300 dps drone damage??

More blaster damage, more drones <meerkat>simples</mieerkat>

Spc One
Gallente
Posted - 2009.11.29 18:48:00 - [136]
 

Originally by: Marlona Sky
CCP, there is still time. Increase the damage to 37.5% and give it 25m3 more drone bay. Everyone wants it!!! Ok, well maybe not everyone but seriously, it would not make it over powered or anything and would make training to minmitar bs 5 worth the cost of the ship and stuff.

I beg you. Crying or Very sad

Well i want it if they change it.
Cool


Lylu
Posted - 2009.11.30 14:55:00 - [137]
 

this changes will bring the Vindi to Close to the Navy Thron, so it wont happen...

better give it 25m or no drone bay and a higher dmg output, but i think some like it and some do not like this idea.

murder one
Gallente
Death of Virtue
MeatSausage EXPRESS
Posted - 2009.11.30 16:07:00 - [138]
 

Originally by: Lylu
this changes will bring the Vindi to Close to the Navy Thron, so it wont happen...

better give it 25m or no drone bay and a higher dmg output, but i think some like it and some do not like this idea.


Just stop it with the no drone bay.

The Vindi needs more gun dps *and* more drone bay space. *NO*, it's not 'too close to the Navy Mega that way.

Lylu
Posted - 2009.12.02 00:13:00 - [139]
 

from Ytterbium(hope i spelled it right), response!

Paragraph above explains why we are not really in favor for an armor repairing bonus, or extra drone bay for the Vindicator.

so why is everyone for a drone bay, if it is truely stated, that they want change it to that way...

facemelting dmg from Blasters, so lower drone bay and more dmg boost.

btw Vindi with Core x Tank and 2 navy magstabs, just dishes out 1,2k dmg and tank 1,4k... something is wrong there...
atleast the vindi should be able to break the tank of another!

Lylu
Posted - 2009.12.06 14:15:00 - [140]
 

Edited by: Lylu on 06/12/2009 16:17:56
Slot layout: 8 high, 5 med, 7 low slots, 8 turrets, no launchers
Fittings: 630 CPU, 17500 powergrid
Bonuses: pirate: 225-250% to large hybrid turret damage, Gallente battleship: +7.5% to large hybrid turrets tracking per level, Minmatar battleship: +10% to strength of stasis webifiers per level
Hitpoints: 8695 shields, 10500 armor, 12500 hull
Capacitor: 6330 capacitor, 1154.875s recharge (about 5.48 cap/s)
Dronebay: 0-25m3 bandwidth, 0-25m3 dronebay
Speed: 141m/s max velocity, 0.0924 agility, 105,200,000kg
Sensor: 50km targeting range, 7 locked targets, 100mm scan resolution, 28 magnetometric sensor strength, 400m signature radius

and increase the cargo bay, as the vindi cannot fit a nos in a high and the active tank really needs alot of cap.

let us try this on sisi pls :)

possible setups on Tq atm, but not worth flying :(:

http://imgur.com/6vPFm.jpg
http://imgur.com/qHROj.jpg
http://imgur.com/27hGB.jpg

Rivqua
Caldari
Omega Wing
Snatch Victory
Posted - 2009.12.06 17:17:00 - [141]
 

Originally by: Lylu
from Ytterbium(hope i spelled it right), response!

Paragraph above explains why we are not really in favor for an armor repairing bonus, or extra drone bay for the Vindicator.

so why is everyone for a drone bay, if it is truely stated, that they want change it to that way...

facemelting dmg from Blasters, so lower drone bay and more dmg boost.

btw Vindi with Core x Tank and 2 navy magstabs, just dishes out 1,2k dmg and tank 1,4k... something is wrong there...
atleast the vindi should be able to break the tank of another!


Gist A-Type Navy Scorp tanks ~5000, and deals 1100, should we give it additional damage so it can break another ? :)

Lylu
Posted - 2009.12.28 19:38:00 - [142]
 

then u can never balance it, just reduce drone bay and increase blaster dmg, as explained...


lolipop2
Amarr
Posted - 2009.12.28 20:38:00 - [143]
 

Edited by: lolipop2 on 28/12/2009 20:51:51
Originally by: CCP Ytterbium

Paragraph above explains why we are not really in favor for an armor repairing bonus, or extra drone bay for the Vindicator. Thus, increasing the damage a bit from 25% to 37.5% could be a possibility, depending on how things evolve, which is not a guaranteed action in any shape or form.


Other pirate bs will also get damage boost? Vindicator already outdamage Rattlesnake by around 500dps including proper hardwires and faction damage mods, if Vindi will get moar damage then i think Rattlersnake dps should be doubled (maybe 25% to drone damage per level and six launcher slots).

Currently faction fitted Vindicator + hardwires does around 1300 dps vs Rattler 800, so its kinda strange to boost already most dps non cap public ship in game without boosting others. Even tier 1 blaster domi outdamages Rattlersnake.

Lylu
Posted - 2009.12.28 22:54:00 - [144]
 

lol rattle with imps is over 1k dps with insane tank and rattle is for tank with drones...

vindi does not have any high slots for utility so it needs a better dmg, cause it will loose vs alot with neuts nos in high, just read the thread.


lolipop2
Amarr
Posted - 2009.12.28 23:05:00 - [145]
 

Edited by: lolipop2 on 28/12/2009 23:51:19
Originally by: Lylu

vindi does not have any high slots for utility so it needs a better dmg, cause it will loose vs alot with neuts nos in high, just read the thread.



so why you proposing 37.5% damage bonus with insane 8 turrets if you need them for something else than turrets?

Originally by: Lylu
lol rattle with imps is over 1k dps with insane tank and rattle is for tank with drones...



Lets compare two ships with simmilar capabilities on the field, and with damage implants (vindi have two because there are no second torpedo damage implant)

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/2432/rattler.png
http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/1286/vindi.png

Rattler need two target painters due to lol 650 rage torpedo sig. Both need web (well Rattler need it more due to very poor explosion velocity). Both ships can tank equial amount of dps but Vindi can tank far longer than Rattler and of course Vindi does around 1600 dps which is >50% more than Rattler can.

Yes definitely Vindicator need a boost, not Rattlesnake.

Cambarus
Malicious Destruction
War Against the Manifest
Posted - 2009.12.28 23:59:00 - [146]
 

Originally by: lolipop2


Lets compare two ships with simmilar capabilities on the field, and with damage implants (vindi have two because there are no second torpedo damage implant)

Rattler need two target painters due to lol 650 rage torpedo sig. Both ships can tank equial amount of dps but Vindi can tank far longer than Rattler and of course Vindi does around 1600 dps which is >50% more than Rattler can.

Yes definitely Vindicator need a boost, not Rattlesnake.

There's 3 things wrong with that comparisson:
1)You're playing to the strength of the vindicator, the rattler's not known for large amounts of damage, and never has been. So gimping the ship's natural strengths in favor of trying to make it more like a vindicator will obviously make it look bad.

2)You're comparing ~10k Range damage to ~25k damage, and the distance between them gets much bigger if you switch out to long range t2 ammo.

3)I'd be the first to agree that the rattler could use some changes, as it's not quite up to par in terms of pvp (still awesome in pve though), but that doesn't make the vindi any better. That'd be like saying that the incursus is an awesome frig because it's better than a bantam...




The main problem people have with the vindi as it is is that it's too much like the much, much cheaper navy mega or the kronos. It lacks a role of its own as the navy mega is better at buffer tanking and the kronos is better at active tanking, while at the same time being similar ships. The fact that the vindi only outdamages the other 2 if it fits 5 heavies, thereby gimping any sort of versatility it would have otherwise had, only serves to make the problem worse. It's essentially a 1 trick pony who's one trick is getting a spoon to stick to his nose, far from impressive and by no means difficult for others to do just as (or at least nearly) as well.

lolipop2
Amarr
Posted - 2009.12.29 00:15:00 - [147]
 

Edited by: lolipop2 on 29/12/2009 00:26:52
Originally by: Cambarus

2)You're comparing ~10k Range damage to ~25k damage, and the distance between them gets much bigger if you switch out to long range t2 ammo


- First off, rattler need to be in 15km range to use domi web (or 10km if you have T2). Until that his dps will be very poor because even a battleship with afterburner can easily outrun torpedoes and even if he web something, torpedoes wont do max damage until target will be going very slow.

- Second, at 25km (or even 27km because of 11km optimal and 16km fallof with Null) Vindi still does moar damage than Rattler.

- Third: Torpedoes need time to fly to target, and if target is moving and in most cases it does (for example orbiting) missiles need additional time to correct direction and that allways reduce range. Other way you can have 25km torpedo range and you wont hit in target 20km orbiting from you (either way torpedoes wont hit because target will be to fast for them).

As for range weapons, Vindi is faster, far more agile than Rattlersnake and can reduce distance to target quicker. Anyway you need to be in Warp Disruptor range to at least try to catch something (ofc everything smaller than BS will hit MWD and get out), other way your target will just warp off.

Cambarus
Malicious Destruction
War Against the Manifest
Posted - 2009.12.29 00:58:00 - [148]
 

Originally by: lolipop2

Bunch of stuff relating to one of my 3 main points
You're still ignoring the fact that you're comparing apples and oranges, not to mention that the fact that the apples kind of suck doesn't actually make the oranges any better, you should be arguing to fix both if you think that the rattler needs fixing, not arguing to keep the vindi as nerfed as it is.

lolipop2
Amarr
Posted - 2009.12.29 01:15:00 - [149]
 

Edited by: lolipop2 on 29/12/2009 01:14:58
Originally by: Cambarus

you should be arguing to fix both if you think that the rattler needs fixing, not arguing to keep the vindi as nerfed as it is.


Hope i will se someday nerfed rattlersnake or any other non cap ship with 1600dps...

If you want to fit a neut for example, just drop one blaster and fit it, dps will drop from 1581 to 1423 and you will still have best non cap damage dealer in game.

Cambarus
Malicious Destruction
War Against the Manifest
Posted - 2009.12.29 03:09:00 - [150]
 

Originally by: lolipop2

Hope i will se someday nerfed rattlersnake or any other non cap ship with 1600dps...

If you want to fit a neut for example, just drop one blaster and fit it, dps will drop from 1581 to 1423 and you will still have best non cap damage dealer in game.


1)Post with your main
2)There is a HUGE difference between 1500 EFT DPS and the 6k+ you can get with a dread(and my dread skills suck), so stop acting like 1500 DPS is absolutely godly.
3) There is an equally huge difference between the DPS you get in eft and the DPS you can actually apply to a target, not to mention that arguing a ship is OP based on all lvl 5 stats is ridiculous.
Remove a blaster for a neut and you've essentially got a navy mega that costs twice as much, and can't pack an extra set of lights.

When's the last time you saw someone complain about how overpowered blaster ships are? You do realize that it's thoretically possible to get just under the DPS of a vindi with just about any blaster specced BS yeh? And yet people are constantly yelling about how blasters need to get fixed, why do you suppose that is?


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