Posted - 2009.10.24 14:14:00 - [2]

 

Edited by: Alpha India on 24/10/2009 14:25:35
I love to loot and salvage everything!

Smaller missions the Vargur loots and salvages while it's going on, and you have enough cargo room to not have to come back with your salvaging ship.

Vargur wins easily in my book!

But bigger ones, like Angel E, I salvage everything, but I find that every time I have to come back in another ship to loot the stuff that didn't fit.

So here, you can choose to only loot specific things, or just come back.

Point is that if you're going to come back anyway you could just blitz it in whatever ship you like, and have your salvager looter do the dirty work.

But the Vargur can ball the wrecks. And Angels fly right up to your windshield if you fight them! So Vargur again wins in my book again.

Vargur bonus: Save on ammo. The training gives you WU and AWU for better fitting of all ships. You can also fit 1200s onto it, and have fun tagging things that stay out at really long range.

Vargur detriment: Long training time, which could be used for other things.

Edit: So sorry I forgot to add that zipping around doesn't help me against Angels in most missions. They come to me, and I try to tag triggers early or mass aggravate. I have a super strong tank that allows me to do this. Mach will definitely close distance on the Saints and Nephies faster, but we all get there eventually.

No matter what they do to the Mach or any faction ship Marauders will still be the kings of missions because of loot salvage, and tank bonus, but that doesn't mean it's worth it.

You are right to ask in that regards!

With Navy ships and such, I believe they have to make Marauders worth training again to be the overwhelmingly easy choice for missions.

I would like an extra Rig slot, and more power for the Vargur to fit MWDs, and 1400s and other things that I sometimes want to try out.

Posted - 2009.10.24 16:09:00 - [4]

 

Originally by: McRoll

---

Well, I tried to fit a Vargur and found out that you cant even put 800 mm AC's along with an XL-Booster and an afterburner on it. That means that youre restricted to expensive deadspace boosters and the fact that once youre fighting something else than Angels, you might want to close distance faster, which you need an afterburner for. Thats a big disadvantage of a Vargur, the low powergrid. Arties can't be fit without fitting mods, if you want to put on the rest of the fitting.

---

Man, these threads have been pure bait for me lately. Though a lot of people think 800mm ACs are the standard end-all-be-all, I really don't ever see a need to use them. Folks seem to forget that what matters most in this game is applied DPS, and all stats considered, d650s offer the best blend of damage and tracking. You might have better luck with a fitting similar to this.

[Vargur, 650]
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Power Diagnostic System II

X-Large Shield Booster II
100MN Afterburner II
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Explosion Dampening Field II

Dual 650mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L
Dual 650mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L
Dual 650mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L
Dual 650mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L
Small Tractor Beam I
Salvager II
Salvager II

Large Projectile Ambit Extension II
Large Projectile Ambit Extension II


Post Dominion, switch the PDS for a Tracking Enhancer II.

Quote:

---

Also, think of the fact that you can shieldtank a Machariel, that leaves you with 7 lowslots, where you can go crazy with gyros and tracking enhancers, which gonna give the Mach an obscene falloff after Dominion. And i love to think about 4 republic fleet gyros and 3 tracking enhancers on that baby :)

Edit: Ammo consumption is gonna be a ***** though

---

It will be nice! The only reason I think the Varg will beat it is the ability to kill and salvage at the same time (as well as the fact that using RF ammo with the Varg is more cost efficient, giving it 15% more gun DPS). You can be sure I'll be testing both though.

Posted - 2009.10.24 16:51:00 - [6]

 

the vargur is awesome because of autocannons

Posted - 2009.10.24 18:12:00 - [8]

 

The other problem on the Mach besides the obvious lack of tractors is the ammo consumption. Quite a factor with ACs I believe, and RF or Barrage is relatively expensive. You could of course use plain T1, but then you lose 15% damage or the barrage range (which really is mandatory imho)

So as far as mission efficiency goes, the Vargur will stay miles ahead, unless you only ***** LP.

Posted - 2009.10.24 21:36:00 - [10]

 

The devs said, they might be looking at autocannon tiers. That means that 800's prb. get more damage.

Back to the Mach.. i always looted with a Hurricane, dedicated for that job. I usually fly several missions in a row, turn them in and salvage after that- with MWD, 3x salvage tackle and 2400m ³ cargobay the Hurricane does it fast enough for me.

So putting salvaging aside, I still think that the Mach is better in Dominion because of more damage and more falloff (if shieldtank). T1 ammo should do the job. Its also way faster, so what I lose in terms of salvaging speed I gain by closing ranges faster and applying more damage. Only dont know whether to shield or armortank it, shieldtank might be bit weak.

Posted - 2009.10.24 22:22:00 - [12]

 

think I'm going to give it to the varg, for the reduced ammo cost and ability to loot/salvage as it goes.

Posted - 2009.10.24 23:26:00 - [14]

 

Edited by: Asillia on 24/10/2009 23:34:44
I recently asked myself the same question, and although I'm no number cruncher and my experience is limited at best I came to this conclusion for the two ships faction fitted with all skills V.

Tanking
Assuming fitted for a moderate shield tank, the Vargur has the tanking upper hand, the extra mid slot and shield boost bonus give you the extra security as far as defence goes.

DPS
Assuming ACs the Mach pulls slightly ahead in raw numbers, the extra low slots, bonus' and two launchers add up to about 80~ DPS more, again there are drawbacks, the vargur will have a better reach and at least half the cost per mission in ammo.

Speed
Mach is the faster boat, by about 74m/s, not the largest difference.

There are some other figures to consider, agility and signature but I'm no expert on those things, all I can gleam is the Mach has a smaller sig and is slightly more agil, but it's still a BS so I doubt it makes that much difference to damage taken in missions.
Scan res, sensor strenth and the likes all do something aswell I'm sure :P

Then there is efficiency, with the vargurs superior reach and wreckballing/salvage potential and cheaper ammo it easily overshadows the Mach if you already have all Vs and the choice of either ship, for your solo isk/hour the vargur takes the cake.

However I'll be skilling for a Mach over the next few weeks, and I'll explain why in the hopes it makes some sense.
I don't have all 5s, to even get into a vargur I need to take 99days worth of training, and that nets me only the DPS/tank gains of BS V and marauders I, and then I can start skilling into more DPS/tanking gains. But that is 99 days from now for which all I will gain is Min BS V and AWU over those 99days while missioning away in my mael.
However if I jump to the Mach training within 10days I can fly it and already up by DPS from my maels current figure, and every 5~ days I will be increasing my DPS/tank with various skills, so by the time I would be stepping into a maurader I will already be doing 200+ DPS more than my mael, where as in the vargur I would be doing about 40DPS more than my mael at 90 days, and then have to slowly skill my way up to that potential DPS.
In the long run the vargur will win out for isk/hour, but I think for me as I can afford to it's worth going for a mach first, and once my dps/tanking skills are nearing their high point then skilling into a vargur, rather than spending 90days plodding along in my noobmael then another 40+days making my vargur worthwhile to actually make those missions faster.

I also have another point to consider with my personal choice, because I can I dual box a logistics alt whose TLs balance out the Vargurs extra reach, not to mention the shield transfer means I can throw tank away for more gank and zerg triggers then tank and spank entire missions in one glorious spacegasm while running salvage/loot aswell from the logistics ship, where as I find a logistics alt repping a vargur gives it more gank potential it doesn't free up as much gank potential as it does to rep a mach, I may not be able to match the vargurs isk/hour ratios but I'll try, and until I can fly a vargur to test for myself I'll be making more isk/hour for those 150+ days in my mach anyway.

And most importantly, the mach looks cooler.

Posted - 2009.10.25 08:37:00 - [16]

 

it really comes down to the salvaging, mach is better for killing, vargur for salvaging thx to bonuses, high slots, cargo bay etc.

Posted - 2009.10.25 11:01:00 - [18]

 

Originally by: Miriiah

---

Angel tank on Vargur is 1-2 invulns and 1 exp hardner, they do on avg 62% exp 20-24% kin and rest em/therm, kin hardner vs angels on shield tankers = waste of slots

And why would you need cap boosters and an XL booster on a Vargur,

---

For peace of mind :)

But seriously, XL boosters fit, so why not fit them?

Concerning the training. I opted to go straight to a Maurader. I changed plans though and going for Command ships / T3 first. So much other stuff that is fun to fly out there :)

Posted - 2009.10.25 16:59:00 - [20]

 

Originally by: Miriiah

---

Angel tank on Vargur is 1-2 invulns and 1 exp hardner, they do on avg 62% exp 20-24% kin and rest em/therm, kin hardner vs angels on shield tankers = waste of slots

And why would you need cap boosters and an XL booster on a Vargur,

---

I'm trying to make a mostly T2 fit for the Vargur and I'm still being accused of overtanking it. I guess I never really got that part of noobishness out of my system. Easy enough to drop an invuln/hardener for a TC however. (And after looking at it, I'll give that a shot.)

As for the why: Because they're dirt cheap, they fit easily, and they work well. I've got my reasons for trying to encourage the cheapest mission fits possible...

@Alpha India: With 2+ TCs, a TE, and a deadspace booster on your Varg, I'm sure you're just killing in the thing. I'd only ever recommend 800s if you don't need a fitting mod to do it, and you have the large reduction in tracking covered. And you got it.

Posted - 2009.10.26 01:39:00 - [22]

 

Originally by: Newbie Ned

---

Can anyone give numbers on how much difference a TE (pre and post dominion) will make and likewise for a TC? Assuming 800s and 3 gyros. It's not that I'm lazy, it's just that I don't understand or know the formulas that well.

---

It depends what the target(s) are.

-Liang

Posted - 2009.10.26 01:52:00 - [24]

 

OK, I'm not quite that stupid. I know it varies on the size of the target but for say a generic angel frigate, cruiser and BS?

And now I know that you are forum whoring , Liang (do you have all minnie ship threads on an alarm?) I know you can give me some reliable numbers!

Thanks!

Posted - 2009.10.26 02:12:00 - [26]

 

Liang, thank you very much, you are very kind! Now if you could just cast your eyes over the Typhoon post I am about to make......

Posted - 2009.10.26 15:19:00 - [28]

 

Edited by: Seriously Bored on 26/10/2009 15:28:30
It's funny how excellent information kills a topic sometimes. Fantastic graphs Liang, those are really useful.

It's looking like 4x Gyro 1x TE 650s ~= 3x Gyro 2x TE 800s inside 20KM...which is to be expected I guess. And though the differences aren't all that extreme, I might have to lose my prejudice against 800s.

(Quick question, are you comparing the current state of Tracking Enhancers, or their effect on ACs after Dominion? It looks like the latter to me, but I wanted to check.)

EDIT: Rechecked the listed stats. Yep, post-Dominion...

Posted - 2009.10.26 17:29:00 - [30]

 

I'm so excited! Because of these topics I ditched my AB for Angel E and used 3 TC's--just to get use to it again.

I only ever have to worry about the 30+ km guys, Saints, Seraphs, Nephies for whatever mission I do. And so with my fall off possibly being pushed to 45km (regular Ambits), I'll hit them harder, earlier, and won't need to chase all the way (I know very Un-Minmater like).

I just have to wait until the changes go through to see if I will turn a TC into an optimal.