| Author |
Topic |
Zarnak Wulf |
Posted - 2009.10.24 21:30:00 - [ 31]
 Originally by: Cpt Branko
If you want to fight at range only, then you should be flying Amarr. If you want point blank damage only, then you should be flying Gallente. The idea behind projectiles is that they can essentially do both, but not so well as ships which only specialize in one thing. Plus, they can vary damage types, which is why the people who want EMP and Fusion to switch places are basically stupid.
In a nutshell this. |
Etho Demerzel
Gallente
Holy Clan of the Cone
|
Posted - 2009.10.25 00:08:00 - [ 32]
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: Wideen
still think that projectiles are "confused". Nice dmg output; at a 1000m, then you might as well use blasters that put out even more dmg, and minnie ships don't rly thrive at such short distances, where basically any other weaponry will do better while also being in sturdier ships.
It's funny how the "Minmatar fight only in falloff" crowd claims that Minmatar suck.
If you want to fight at range only, then you should be flying Amarr. If you want point blank damage only, then you should be flying Gallente. The idea behind projectiles is that they can essentially do both, but not so well as ships which only specialize in one thing. Plus, they can vary damage types, which is why the people who want EMP and Fusion to switch places are basically stupid.
Oh, yes, and I know the Tempest sucks. Let's try to not base every balance discussion around a ship which is essentially crap as a short range BS in today's EVE.
A small correctio: If you want to still suck at both short and long range at twice the cost of the sp of any other race you fly minmatar and use projectiles, otherwise just train amarr for both short and long range. |
Liang Nuren |
Posted - 2009.10.25 00:40:00 - [ 33]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 25/10/2009 00:40:53 Originally by: Etho Demerzel
A small correctio:
If you want to still suck at both short and long range at twice the cost of the sp of any other race you fly minmatar and use projectiles, otherwise just train amarr for both short and long range.
Sigh. I dunno. It seems like things are taking a positive turn. We may be a few nudges from pretty reasonable balance at the battleship level... mostly things like the Pest really sucking and me absolutely hating the new Scorp. -Liang Ed: I wouldn't be surprised if projectiles hold an edge up close over lasers post Dominion, and hold an edge over blasters out far. |
Etho Demerzel
Gallente
Holy Clan of the Cone
|
Posted - 2009.10.25 01:07:00 - [ 34]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Sigh. I dunno. It seems like things are taking a positive turn. We may be a few nudges from pretty reasonable balance at the battleship level... mostly things like the Pest really sucking and me absolutely hating the new Scorp.
-Liang
Ed: I wouldn't be surprised if projectiles hold an edge up close over lasers post Dominion, and hold an edge over blasters out far.
Being better than pulses when really close does not cut it. Especially considering the Tempest sucks and there is no plans to change it, and the Maelstrom is not exactly good for small gangs that would benefit from an advantage at extremely close range. I reckon that Blasters and ACs are reasonably well balanced against each other, though. The problems are Pulse lasers. There will be no balance until they have their tracking substantially decreased. |
Seriously Bored
Minmatar |
Posted - 2009.10.25 01:35:00 - [ 35]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Sigh. I dunno. It seems like things are taking a positive turn. We may be a few nudges from pretty reasonable balance at the battleship level... mostly things like the Pest really sucking and me absolutely hating the new Scorp.
I must have missed the thread...I know the Pest is going to keep sucking, but what's changing with the Scorp? |
Wideen
Total Mayhem.
Cry Havoc. |
Posted - 2009.10.25 19:14:00 - [ 36]
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 24/10/2009 21:06:22
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 24/10/2009 21:05:47
Originally by: Wideen
still think that projectiles are "confused". Nice dmg output; at a 1000m, then you might as well use blasters that put out even more dmg, and minnie ships don't rly thrive at such short distances, where basically any other weaponry will do better while also being in sturdier ships.
It's funny how the "Minmatar fight only in falloff" crowd claims that Minmatar suck.
If you want to fight at range only, then you should be flying Amarr. If you want point blank damage only, then you should be flying Gallente. The idea behind projectiles is that they can essentially do both, but not so well as ships which only specialize in one thing. Plus, they can vary damage types, which is why the people who want EMP and Fusion to switch places are basically stupid.
Oh, yes, and I know the Tempest sucks. Let's try to not base every balance discussion around a ship which is essentially crap as a short range BS in today's EVE.
yes I agree, the versatility is just mind-boggling. |
Liang Nuren |
Posted - 2009.10.25 20:07:00 - [ 37]
Originally by: Seriously Bored
I must have missed the thread...I know the Pest is going to keep sucking, but what's changing with the Scorp?
They aren't. I just dislike the "new" scorp vs the "old" scorp. They ****ed up its role and didn't bother giving it a new one. -Liang |
Allen Ramses
Caldari
Zombicidal Mania
|
Posted - 2009.10.25 23:06:00 - [ 38]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Seriously Bored
I must have missed the thread...I know the Pest is going to keep sucking, but what's changing with the Scorp?
They aren't. I just dislike the "new" scorp vs the "old" scorp. They ****ed up its role and didn't bother giving it a new one.
-Liang
What, you would rather see the navy scorp being stronger with ECM, and being just as useless as it is now in a combat deployment, except maybe an extra drone or two? The scorp sucks as a battleship, because it is incapable of battle. The navy scorp is going to be WTFPWNPIMPz on the battlefield. DPS of a raven with a tank that doesn't suck? I'll take one please! |
Liang Nuren |
Posted - 2009.10.26 01:59:00 - [ 39]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 26/10/2009 02:02:35 Originally by: Allen Ramses
What, you would rather see the navy scorp being stronger with ECM, and being just as useless as it is now in a combat deployment, except maybe an extra drone or two? The scorp sucks as a battleship, because it is incapable of battle. The navy scorp is going to be WTFPWNPIMPz on the battlefield. DPS of a raven with a tank that doesn't suck? I'll take one please!
Comments: - I said I dislike THE SCORPION post ECM nerf. They promised me a gank brawler scorp and then delivered a "fleet ecm" that sucks at fleets. Just bring more damage in for fleet work, and as a brawler it just doesn't cut the mustard. It lacks tank, gank, and now it even lacks ECM strength. - The Scorp is hardly "incapable of battle", it just took an unnecessary (IMO) nerf. Its role should have been adjusted to be more battleship-like. I'm thinking 5% ROF / 25% ECM str (no optimal/range bonuses) - I didn't say anything about the navy scorp. However, the Navy Scorp is kinda fail, having only 8.0 eff launchers to the Raven's 8.0 and the CNR's 9.33. It undoubtedly sports a better tank than the Raven, but the CNR maintains a better DPS / EHP ratio and more low slots for armor tanking (and thus will still be a better option in PVP). On top of that, the Navy Scorp will cost more.  -Liang Ed: Further research reveals that the Navy Scorp has 8.0 eff launchers. It's at least more viable than it was originally supposed, but given what the costs are likely to be, I'll take a CNR. |
Allen Ramses
Caldari
Zombicidal Mania
|
Posted - 2009.10.26 04:48:00 - [ 40]
Ok, I misunderstood you. Apologies. Originally by: Liang Nuren
The Scorp is hardly "incapable of battle", it just took an unnecessary (IMO) nerf. Its role should have been adjusted to be more battleship-like. I'm thinking 5% ROF / 25% ECM str (no optimal/range bonuses)
For that to work, it would need far more than a 4/4 layout with only six high slots. I don't think the Scorpion was EVER intended to be combatworthy. Quote:
It undoubtedly sports a better tank than the Raven, but the CNR maintains a better DPS / EHP ratio
...
I'll take a CNR.
For each, their own. I prefer tank over gank, myself  |
Roland Thorne
Minmatar
Jian Products Engineering Group |
Posted - 2009.10.27 17:28:00 - [ 41]
Originally by: Allen Ramses
For each, their own. I prefer tank over gank, myself
Prepare to be disappointed at the killboard |
Roland Thorne
Minmatar
Jian Products Engineering Group |
Posted - 2009.10.27 17:33:00 - [ 42]
Edited by: Roland Thorne on 27/10/2009 17:39:25 Originally by: Liang Nuren
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 25/10/2009 00:40:53
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
A small correctio:
If you want to still suck at both short and long range at twice the cost of the sp of any other race you fly minmatar and use projectiles, otherwise just train amarr for both short and long range.
Sigh. I dunno. It seems like things are taking a positive turn. We may be a few nudges from pretty reasonable balance at the battleship level... mostly things like the Pest really sucking and me absolutely hating the new Scorp.
-Liang
Ed: I wouldn't be surprised if projectiles hold an edge up close over lasers post Dominion, and hold an edge over blasters out far.
I'm a little confused at the close ammo having no tracking. That would have helped at close range but I suppose it fits with the BS class ships, and the smaller classes don't have much of a problem with this anyway. Edit: More then normal, and I am not talking about hail ammo. Btw, do ammo changes scale for RF ammo? |
Alpha India |
Posted - 2009.10.27 17:45:00 - [ 43]
Edited by: Alpha India on 27/10/2009 18:38:20 Originally by: CCP Nozh
Thanks for all the feedback, sorry for not being active in the thread, there is tons of other work to do besides posting on the forums (and projectile balancing for that matter). You'll be able to test the second iteration of the projectile changes on Singularity tomorrow.
Ammo Changes - Base Values:
Long Range (1.6 range modifier - 5 damage - 5% tracking bonus):
Carbonized Lead - 4 kinetic / 1 explosive
Nuclear - 4 explosive / 1 kinetic
Proton - 3 em / 2 kinetic
Medium Range (1.0 range modifier - 8 damage - 20% tracking bonus):
Depleted Uranium - 3 explosive / 3 thermal / 2 kinetic
Titanium Sabot - 6 kinetic / 2 explosive
Short Range (0.5 range modifier - 12 damage):
EMP - 9 em / 2 explosive / 1 kinetic
Phased Plasma - 10 thermal / 2 kinetic
Fusion - 10 explosive / 2 kinetic
Tracking Computer / Enhancer changes:
- Tracking Computer falloff bonus fixed.
- Bonus doubled
- Stacking nerfed
- Tracking links also have a falloff modifier
Autocannons / Repeating Artillery
Falloff increases by tier.
I'm still not too happy with these, will be worked on more next iteration.
Artillery
Instead of increasing alpha on both weapon tiers of each size class, you now have a choice.
- 1200's low alpha, fast rate of fire.
- 1400's high alpha, slow rate of fire.
Just to bring it on this side of the forums. Edit: I'm the idiot who doesn't know how to link! http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1184365&page=44#1315 |
Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
|
Posted - 2009.10.27 17:54:00 - [ 44]
Originally by: Alpha India
Originally by: CCP Nozh
snip
Just to bring it on this side of the forums.
Well, that is certainly beautiful, and just perfect. |
AstroPhobic
Minmatar
Holding Corp |
Posted - 2009.10.27 18:24:00 - [ 45]
New changes? Astro likey.
|
Kaileen Starsong
Amarr
Veto.
Veto Corp |
Posted - 2009.10.27 18:55:00 - [ 46]
That's sort of nuts. I hope they won't come to nerfing Hurricane because it'll be very awesome now ^^ |
Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
|
Posted - 2009.10.27 19:08:00 - [ 47]
Originally by: Kaileen Starsong
That's sort of nuts. I hope they won't come to nerfing Hurricane because it'll be very awesome now ^^
Well, we'll just point the other way and say "look at the Drake, it has better EHP/DPS" and it's sortof balanced with the Harb for nonsolo work which works better at range but worse up close (which is the idea, I think). 10 mil that blaster buff is next. |
Seriously Bored
Minmatar |
Posted - 2009.10.27 19:09:00 - [ 48]
Wow. Just wow. This is what I get for abandoning the Projectile Balancing thread.
Real, selectable damage? Check.
Damage parity with other weapon types? Check.
A reason to use LR ammo? Check.
Fusion being highest damage ammo? (Shares the spot, but check!)
This could be just initial euphoria, but I might shed a rusty tear in joy. The difference between 1200mm and 1400mm is really interesting, and it's understandable that TCs and TEs will be stack nerfed. (I'm hoping ambits stay as they are, but that might not be realistic.) |
Vrabac
Zawa's Fan Club
|
Posted - 2009.10.27 19:14:00 - [ 49]
LOL so now we come to the point where people will fit autocannons on absolutions and astartes?  This is really an... interesting approach. |
Roland Thorne
Minmatar
Jian Products Engineering Group |
Posted - 2009.10.27 19:22:00 - [ 50]
Originally by: Seriously Bored
The difference between 1200mm and 1400mm is really interesting, and it's understandable that TCs and TEs will be stack nerfed. (I'm hoping ambits stay as they are, but that might not be realistic.)
This killed my hope to put 1200s on a tempest, but it is a reasonable compromise for missioners. Originally by: Vrabac
LOL so now we come to the point where people will fit autocannons on absolutions and astartes?
This is really an... interesting approach.
Both of those can out-dps minmatar ships using what they are supposed to be using! |
Seriously Bored
Minmatar |
Posted - 2009.10.27 19:23:00 - [ 51]
Originally by: Vrabac
LOL so now we come to the point where people will fit autocannons on absolutions and astartes?
This is really an... interesting approach.
They'll do **** all for damage, but it probably won't stop some people. Just like the old days, right?  |
Liang Nuren |
Posted - 2009.10.27 19:28:00 - [ 52]
I'm going to have to play with the stack nerfed falloff, but I'm fairly sure we're going to see that being a fairly substantial nerf.
-Liang |
Vrabac
Zawa's Fan Club
|
Posted - 2009.10.27 19:35:00 - [ 53]
Originally by: Roland Thorne
Originally by: Vrabac
LOL so now we come to the point where people will fit autocannons on absolutions and astartes?
This is really an... interesting approach.
Both of those can out-dps minmatar ships using what they are supposed to be using!
Hurricane out-dpses them both, but hey I bet you like sitting in the middle of your second falloff whining how you can't break a drake?  With this change it will get idiotically long-ranged, full tracking hail. Combined with increased falloff due to tiers and TEs/TCs (which is actually just fine by itself). Say good bye to your AN MF 8km supremacy, fit some ACs instead. And blasters... just lol. I really hope ccp realize what they are doing, although it's not easy to expect given the fact they seem to model their change plans based on whines and all the whiners are thrilled with this. Oh, and I love how they still aren't fixing tempest, where actual problem exists. |
Kaileen Starsong
Amarr
Veto.
Veto Corp |
Posted - 2009.10.27 19:36:00 - [ 54]
Edited by: Kaileen Starsong on 27/10/2009 19:36:41
@ -Liang
Depends on what you have that's boosting it, tbh. I mean, Ambit-rigged plated Hurricane will MAYBE have less falloff(depends on what are the falloff numbers for tiers of ACs). Shield Hurricane, though... 3xgyro, 2xTE, DC and it has 425s anyway, so with double bonus on TEs I bet it'll have substantially more falloff. Same goes for other ships/fits tbh. |
Seriously Bored
Minmatar |
Posted - 2009.10.27 19:42:00 - [ 55]
Edited by: Seriously Bored on 27/10/2009 19:51:10Edited by: Seriously Bored on 27/10/2009 19:50:28 Originally by: Liang Nuren
I'm going to have to play with the stack nerfed falloff, but I'm fairly sure we're going to see that being a fairly substantial nerf.
-Liang
I'm not so sure, since the changes sound like they're doubling the effect of TCs and TEs. Ignoring Ambits (because nothing was said about them) and 800mm falloff staying the same (unlikely?)... Current (ED: Old Nozh proposal): 16KM Base * 1.25 Skill * 1.15 (TE) * 1.15 (TC) * 1.15(TC) = 30.41KM New: 16KM Base * 1.25 Skill * 1.30 (TE) * 1.26126 (1st Penalty TC) * 1.17117% (2nd Penalty TC) = 38.4KM Looks like a ~26% improvement to me! The only question is the ambits, but even then, I think it might tie at the least. ED: One other comment...this could be really cool for Blaster boats as well. |
Alpha India |
Posted - 2009.10.27 19:52:00 - [ 56]
I'm noticing the lack of a tracking bonus to close range ammo in this trial.
But I mean, purer damage!? Possibly properly tiered guns!? Double bonus' to TE's and TC's!? I'll get over it! |
Liang Nuren |
Posted - 2009.10.27 19:52:00 - [ 57]
Originally by: Kaileen Starsong
@ -Liang
Depends on what you have that's boosting it, tbh. I mean, Ambit-rigged plated Hurricane will MAYBE have less falloff(depends on what are the falloff numbers for tiers of ACs). Shield Hurricane, though... 3xgyro, 2xTE, DC and it has 425s anyway, so with double bonus on TEs I bet it'll have substantially more falloff. Same goes for other ships/fits tbh.
You fit TEs to your shield buffer canes? -Liang |
Roland Thorne
Minmatar
Jian Products Engineering Group |
Posted - 2009.10.27 19:57:00 - [ 58]
|
Vrabac
Zawa's Fan Club
|
Posted - 2009.10.27 20:01:00 - [ 59]
Originally by: Roland Thorne
Tell me, why do the optimal whiners always misunderstand the purpose of falloff, or even situational tactics? Damn near impossible to describe it to peeps who don't even know what it means, so I refuse to explain it to you.... again.
Hurricane is my most used ship. Actually soloed a proper astarte with it recently. So I think you don't really have to explain much to me. |
Kaileen Starsong
Amarr
Veto.
Veto Corp |
Posted - 2009.10.27 20:02:00 - [ 60]
Edited by: Kaileen Starsong on 27/10/2009 20:03:15 Originally by: Liang Nuren
You fit TEs to your shield buffer canes?
Now? No. I go Ambits if I fly this thing. And 4 gyros After Dominion hits I'll fit 3xgyro, 2xTE. Then T2 ROF rig and 2xCDFE probably. Nanos/ODs are nice to have, but in most cases they do not do much, atleast for what I/my gang fights. I don't fly it as Vagacane, that's pretty meh and ineffective imo, by the time you kill something it'd die out of boredom. I instead prefer to fly it as a proper blasterboat |
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