Posted - 2009.10.23 07:05:00 - [31]

 

Originally by: Eran Mintor

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I would agree but, like I said above, it is essential they are allowed to return home when they wish. If they are killed defending Gallente space that Gallenteans refuse to defend themselves then I am vehemently opposed to this proposition.

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Mr Mintor, while I can see the moral objections, if people decide to take on these jobs despite the risks, it does say something on their current situation.

Then again, we are all capsuleers here. We all hire crew and pay them well to put their life on the line. Is that not economic slavery in a way as well?

Posted - 2009.10.23 09:16:00 - [33]

 

*Eran looks a little distraught and grumbles*

Damn neo-com interface always buggerin' up...errr anyway...

Ahh, the stunning Lady Arkenath...

Yes, you are correct. I myself employ several thousand Minmatar on-board my vessels. Little recruiting actually has to be done as the Republic is limited in it's current job selections, no doubt. Many come to me knowing that I have a history of being more careful than other 'podders and seek out work on my non-combat vessels. Of course I have combat ships as well...those crew-members are usually recruited directly from one of the Republic war academies so they know what they are getting into. There are a few green-necks who learn as they go...but they are only hired on a case-by-case basis...(oddly enough, they are usually relatives or friends of family).

Well, enough on my personal work ethic...this is really about the EL-G's proposition.

I have no problem with people trying their luck aboard a spacecraft, or even looking at the Republic's failings and wish to try life in the Federation instead, or even return to the Mandate or go elsewhere; they are free and all venues are open. What I am disagreeing with is the approach taken by Mr. Inhonores. He purposefully targets the Starkmanir and Nefantar, those who are the most disenfranchised of the seven tribes and least likely to be happy as they have no property, to leave with him on a "job offer" that has a fine print contract stating that you've signed your life away.

If these newly freed slaves, refugees, and other indigent and eager Minamtar recruits (who would probably care little about any contract aside from the monetary phrase and "x" at the bottom) were to actually read the whole contract, they probably would still be naive to the fact they are realistically not going to finish their tour aboard a war vessel in the Gallente-Caldari warzone...

This is a tragedy. You cannot give peace by offering war. Capsuleers need to stop thinking of refugees and other poverty stricken peoples as tools to be taken advantage of. While I assume Mr. Inhonores was trying to be benevolent, the act contradicts itself. These people need stability. They do not need to be swept into a war that offers nothing but death. The romanticism of war in the youth's eyes will cause many young men with testosterone and nationalist propaganda flowing through their being to enlist shortsightedly. What I would hope instead are stable jobs, like a job fitting, buidling, or maintaining Gallente ships for the EL-G. An alternative, perhaps.

I am disappointed.

P.S. Use your own kin as your crew, it makes you fly like an ace, instead of a tart.

Posted - 2009.10.28 02:06:00 - [35]

 

You seemed to have completely missed my point, Mr. Rathen. Here's essentially what I wanted to get across:

When you mix the demand for troops with the demand for jobs, it's without question that some will answer Mr. Inhonores' offer. However, with Mr. Inhonores claimed good intentions aside, the recruitment is harmful; not only to the Minmatar people and the Republic, but the Federation itself.

EL-G is purposefully and selectively recruiting impoverished people from the Federation's ally, the Minmatar Republic, to fight a war that is not the responsibility of the Minmatar people. Please understand, I have no problem with Minmatar who want to migrate to the Federation or enlist with the Gallente military so long as their reasons are logical. What EL-G offers seems to be logical, but there is more to what's been said, underneath the veil. For one, it is not right to convince them that the Federation is essentially "where the better life is," when truth reveals that most all of what EL-G offers these recruits are just death-beds. Some would survive a tour, or several... Maybe after they would then be wise enough to know not to accept such an offer again.

If the Federation cannot rely on it's own population to defe- *static* ... find a way to re-gain the hearts of all members of the Federation. When the time comes when your own people will not stand up to die for their nation and come together, then it's most wise to address that problem, first, before pulling innocent lives into the bloody conflict.

These impoverished Minmatar deserve peace and stability, not war and chaos. The Minmatar Republic is currently ostracizing and oppressing them, yet the only alternative offered thus far by the Gallente is...death? How twisted our minds have become as capsuleers, yet we mimic human personalities on a grandeur scale...

*Eran's face twitches before the feed closes*

Posted - 2009.11.02 13:18:00 - [37]

 

Edited by: Jianni Sotaku on 02/11/2009 13:25:14
Edited by: Jianni Sotaku on 02/11/2009 13:21:15
The 'only' option M. Mintor? I'm not so sure about that.

However, I am sure that there is a rather large matari population who reside in the federation. I'm also sure that not most, and certainly not all of them work as crew members on federal starships, and even if they did it would be their choice, their 'freedom' , if you wish to call it that.
Just as it would be their freedom to immigrate to the Republic and vise versa. Just as it would be their own violition to come and work for the guard, or for any other industry or corporation for that matter.

This point appears to be nothing more that an overexaggerated fallacy. I wish I had the time and the system to completely review and comment on your words, but I'm afraid I am limited in both right now. So I'm sorry if I missed anything.

But remember, we're giving the choice. Just as we give that choice to all federal citizens.

Posted - 2009.11.03 12:22:00 - [39]

 

Originally by: Eran Mintor

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EL-G is purposefully and selectively recruiting impoverished people from the Federation's ally, the Minmatar Republic, to fight a war that is not the responsibility of the Minmatar people.

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How dare they? Offering jobs to the impoverished? Why, only the Republic can do that! Damn those Gallente slavers, damn them all to a hell where they're down on their luck and then given the option of working at decent pay. That'd show them!

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Please understand, I have no problem with Minmatar who want to migrate to the Federation or enlist with the Gallente military so long as their reasons are logical. What EL-G offers seems to be logical, but there is more to what's been said, underneath the veil. For one, it is not right to convince them that the Federation is essentially "where the better life is," when truth reveals that most all of what EL-G offers these recruits are just death-beds.

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As opposed to the Matari Militia or Ushra'Khan, where crewmen can expect to live lives of at least... Six hours. Normally. Usually about a week, true, but really six hours is all that can be guaranteed.

9 out of 10 had time to write their will!

Some would survive a tour, or several... Maybe after they would then be wise enough to know not to accept such an offer again.

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If the Federation cannot rely on it's own population to defe- *static* ... find a way to re-gain the hearts of all members of the Federation. When the time comes when your own people will not stand up to die for their nation and come together, then it's most wise to address that problem, first, before pulling innocent lives into the bloody conflict.

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Actually, in the case where the enemy is not only at the gate, but has entered the gate, made themselves comftorable at the gate, and began turning sections of the gate into night clubs and casinos, you might want to try and get your gate back ASAP. True the lack of Gallente will to fight is saddening (Or humorous, depending on whether you're watching the night club being built on your gate or waiting in line for it), but I think that EL-G has every right to try and pull at any available resources in order to combat the threat.

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These impoverished Minmatar deserve peace and stability, not war and chaos. The Minmatar Republic is currently ostracizing and oppressing them, yet the only alternative offered thus far by the Gallente is...death?

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Untrue. The Federation purportedly has many kinds of jobs available for citizens. Crewman is only one of the options. You could also be anything from a janitor to a teacher, from a construction worker to a bouncer at that new night club. Your know, 'Le Porte'. I hear it's really exotic.

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How twisted our minds have become as capsuleers, yet we mimic human personalities on a grandeur scale...

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Indeed. Such as deciding that giving someone an opportunity is akin to imperialism. Here's a tip for you, from someone who's spent his fair share and more of time with Caldari. If you offer a crap deal, and someone else offers a better deal, calling it imperialism is not a valid market strategy.

How about you start work on Republic infrastructure, create some jobs? That way the jobless might not have to turn to death traps of the Federation in order to gain jobs.

Posted - 2009.11.03 18:44:00 - [41]

 

Originally by: Sinti Vailatti

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I was going to support this...

Until Inhonores got my brother killed in his stupid war.

So yeah, EL-G will give you a good paycheck and a full belly, and it'll get you dead to promote the Gallente war effort.


S.

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I am sincerely sorry for your loss, but at least your brother died fighting for something. At least he didn't die of malnutrition in some Amarrian's fields, or arbitrarily to satisfy some twisted religious maniac's perverted bloodlust. He died free and he died a true Matari warrior's death. You might not take much comfort from that, but at least you can take some pride.

Posted - 2009.11.06 00:17:00 - [43]

 

Originally by: Seriphyn Inhonores

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Originally by: Sinti Vailatti

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I was going to support this...

Until Inhonores got my brother killed in his stupid war.

So yeah, EL-G will give you a good paycheck and a full belly, and it'll get you dead to promote the Gallente war effort.


S.

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The death of Dante Vailatti, Neosyllektos of the Eleutherian Guard, came as a shock to all of us in the unit, including myself. He was an eager pilot, and fought bravely against our enemy. When I personally learnt of his death, it struck me deeply as to why this happened.

We shall contact you via the NeoCom regarding the investigation of this incident.

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Wait, this guy was a pod pilot?

Posted - 2009.11.06 01:08:00 - [45]

 

Edited by: Jakiin on 06/11/2009 01:08:34

Originally by: Sinti Vailatti

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Yes he was a Capsuleer and Gallente-born immigrant.

My brother was in more danger of starving in one of our stations, then in an Amarr plantation. But that’s a long story.

He supported the Gallente cause and the patronage of EL-G and Inhonores. His life isn’t the only ‘Matar life that has been lost inside an EL-G ship.

I know this alliance has been around for a while, but how is it that we be cannon fodder for those who are supposed to be our allies?

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I'm not sure how it is that the... Wait.

quote=Sinti Vailatti? Your brother was Dante Vailatti? That fool who called everything that in any way shape or form suggested the Gallente Federation wasn't perfect 'funded by the Caldari State'? He's the one that died here?

Well that changes things. If these are the sort of people that are dying under Eleutherian Guard command then I'm going to have to commend them for raising the collective gene quality of humanity.

On my original thought, however, you must realize that this isn't a forceful action, EL-G is not grabbing Matari in the dead of not and telling them to fight for the Guard rather than the Tribals. EL-G is offering a choice, which the Matari are free to make one way or another.

If any Matari decide that they should be fighting for the Federation rather than the Republic, then it is the fault of the Republic for making them feel that way. Not the fault of the Federation for making a better offer.

Posted - 2009.11.06 02:11:00 - [47]

 

Originally by: Sinti Vailatti

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Wow, you really are as smart as Dante said. No dust on that brain.

*sigh*

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Dante mentioned me specifically? I'm not sure how I feel about that.

Normally I have far more respect for the dead, even the dead of those who are traditionally my enemies (Unless they're cloned, in which case I have been known to attempt to buy a corpse in order to mock them). But Dante was simply not an asset to anyone, his complete lack of diplomacy painted a terrible image of EL-G and made speaking with him an exercise in futility and head-banging. People die all the time, and he shall be judged by the Lord as either deserving of Heaven or Hell (Or a second chance, if you believe some orders), but I'm just glad I don't have to hear his voice on every Intaki Sovereignty-related thread.

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I'm not suggesting that Inhonores has a fleet of transport ships and a clear line from Hek to Stacmon which he uses to transport boatloads of my peeps to fight his war for him. No sirree.

(Nice mental image though)

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Thank you. I considered adding in a bit about EL-G holding some orphans hostage, but decided it was a little overkill.

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I'm just sayin that he's offering us jobs. Jobs that our own government has failed to provide. That's a good thing. The bad thing is that many of these jobs seem to be as crew on EL-G shps and Gallente plexes and that maybe it's not such a good thing to move from one mess to another.

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True, but that is the decision of the individual Matari to make. It seems a little hypocritical that so many here who fight for the freedom of slaves decry someone that offers Minmatar a dangerous job, simply because they aren't Matari.

You might point out the extreme dangers of this job, but honestly if some Matari captain made it clear he was looking to hire disenfranchised Matari as crew on his equally dangerous assignment, would he have received such a negative response?

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Oh and watch your mouth bucko before I lob an asteroid at your pretty Amarr head. You won't like it when people speak ill of you when you die.

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Pretty? Me? Aw, you're making me blush.

No, I don't imagine I will like it when people speak ill of me when I die. I imagine people will, however, mostly people that have never met me, usually along the lines of "Great news that another fanatic slaver scum has kicked the bucket. Party at my place." I can try to counteract that by presenting myself as someone who is fairly reasonable, someone who does understand the motives behind the Freedom Fighters rather than simply deciding they're all a bunch of thugs, and someone who hates fanatics of all kinds just as much as the next guy. But still terrible, terrible things will be said, and I must come to terms with this.

Your brother? Didn't even try. He maintained a very simplistic view of the cluster, presumably right up t his death, and made no attempt at diplomacy or further understanding. I will not pretend he was a credit to humanity simply because he is no longer alive, there's no point.

Posted - 2009.11.06 02:38:00 - [49]

 

Originally by: Aria Jenneth

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Even if I might possibly agree in general, there is one, at least:

tact [takt] -noun 1) a keen sense of what to say or do to avoid giving offense; skill in dealing with difficult or delicate situations. 2) not telling bereaved family members exactly what you thought of the deceased.

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Let me rephrase. There is no point which I consider a priority. I do believe in diplomacy, but that does not necessarily require I lie about my feelings on a matter.

Posted - 2009.11.06 06:04:00 - [51]

 

Originally by: Aria Jenneth

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Hm. Well, that assumes that you consider it necessary to express an opinion.

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If I didn't run my mouth off on a near constant basis here, I'd find myself with very little to do in the way of entertainment.

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I generally find it useful to maintain cordial relations even with bitter enemies-- and my philosophy does not demand that I should seek peace with such enemies. Your own would seem to make establishing amicable relations a priority.

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If you base peace off of things such as liking each other then you'll inevitably find that it's a fragile one. Peace because you understand one another is much easier to maintain, as long as the other is willing to ensure making you dead is not necessary. I don't need anyone to like me, and I don't need to like anyone else. We just need to establish that we both believe in rationality and war will almost always end up a less practical solution.

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Lies are fragile, thin, and easily shredded. Those with the will and the attention to detail can unravel them all too easily. That said, there is something to be said for the sort of lie nobody will want to unravel.

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Nothing good about it. Living in a world of lies is quite unhealthy, and I believe everyone always deserves to know the truth. whether or not they like it or will benefit from it, they deserve to know.

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And if a word of sympathy to the loved ones of a terrible, but dead, fool is beyond you, there is always the fine art of biting one's tongue.

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Fine, but boring.

Posted - 2009.11.06 20:31:00 - [53]

 

Originally by: Wanoah

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Look, I don't want to harp on about it, but I still want to know how a pod pilot ends up dead. I've wound up dead any number of times - far too ****ing often to be perfectly honest - but, you know: clone contract. The best insurance in the cluster. Still, I remember the rumours about GH-SC bombing cloning facilities to permakill their targets. I have no idea if there's any truth to that stuff, especially given the mythologising that goes on around old Istvaan and friends, but it still sends a shiver down my spine when I think of it. So what gives?

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If you kill someone outside of their pod, 9/10 they aren't equipped to clone. This is because equipping a body to clone outside of a pod is expensive, especially when you attempt to have it cover every possible means of being killed. There is no system which I am aware of (Not for lack of trying) that will clone you in time if you're walking down the street and are shot in the head. Not to mention all the accidents that can happen.

AIMED malfunction.
Transition malfunction.
Pod malfunction.
Clone malfunction.
Station power outage.
Clone chamber empty.
Clone chamber malfunction.

There are almost innumerable ways for a capsuleer to die. They're just not obvious.

Posted - 2009.11.07 00:23:00 - [55]

 

Interesting, anyway. Though I certainly don't miss Mr. Vailatti, or am sad to see him gone, or feel his killer should be punished... Well, the point is that I'm interested to know who can kill a capsuleer so easily in space. I've always had a theory about remotely hacking into a ship's systems and disrupting the scanning or transmission process, but naturally the difficulty of such a task is very high and the result is... distasteful to many.

There are some psychologists who claim that capsuleers no longer recognize the act of killing a baseline murder, only killing a fellow capsuleer. Who knows, they might be right.

Posted - 2009.11.09 23:19:00 - [57]

 

Originally by: Sinti Vailatti

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Oh, killing a capsuleer in space without the clone being activated is very easy Mr Jankin.

All you have to do is force the capsuleer's ship (or his pod) to go past the event horizon of a black hole. The gravity well would prevent the escape of the pod's transmission to the clone bank and thus, there would be no re-animation order.

I um...I read a lot while digging asteroids.

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Interesting. I can't help but wonder though how often a capsuleer would spend any time near a black hole.

Posted - 2009.11.18 23:09:00 - [59]

 

Originally by: Jianni Sotaku

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The 'only' option M. Mintor? I'm not so sure about that. However, I am sure that there is a rather large matari population who reside in the federation. I'm also sure that not most, and certainly not all of them work as crew members on federal starships, and even if they did it would be their choice, their 'freedom' , if you wish to call it that. Just as it would be their freedom to immigrate to the Republic and vise versa. Just as it would be their own violition to come and work for the guard, or for any other industry or corporation for that matter. This point appears to be nothing more that an overexaggerated fallacy. I wish I had the time and the system to completely review and comment on your words, but I'm afraid I am limited in both right now. So I'm sorry if I missed anything. But remember, we're giving the choice. Just as we give that choice to all federal citizens.

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Okay, let me make this clear one last time because what I originally said was ignored and things are now distorted.

I have no problem with any Minmatar leaving the Republic to go to Federation space or even work for the Gallente.

What I do have a problem with is Gallente military recruiters specifically targeting dis-enfranchised youth, so as to take advantage of their dire and seemingly "helpless" condition, to then work on a war-ship; these crew members have a life-span akin to that of sickly person with a fatal disease. I would still have a problem with this even if the targeted men and women weren't Minmatar.

I have no problem with the EL-G offering jobs aboard their star-base's, hangars, or offices.

I do not, however, think it is right for your organization to throw youth looking for hope into an "opportunity" aboard a floating coffin.

For this offer to be fair, these recruits need to be fully aware that they are most likely not going to return home to their families so that they can make preparations for their death or, if they wise up, they would realize it's not such a great "opportunity" as it originally looked.

And Mr. Jakiin, your ironic sarcasm delights me. You further support my points without knowing it. This is a matter of morality and honesty. People have the right to have accurate information presented to them before any decision should be made.

With that said, I realize I made some rash statements that were not true about Gallente support. The Gallente have done much for the Minmatar people, that cannot be argued.

Furthermore...

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Indeed. Such as deciding that giving someone an opportunity is akin to imperialism. Here's a tip for you, from someone who's spent his fair share and more of time with Caldari. If you offer a crap deal, and someone else offers a better deal, calling it imperialism is not a valid market strategy. How about you start work on Republic infrastructure, create some jobs? That way the jobless might not have to turn to death traps of the Federation in order to gain jobs.

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It's all about perspective. You said it yourself...

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"where crewmen can expect to live lives of at least... Six hours. Normally. Usually about a week, true, but really six hours is all that can be guaranteed.

9 out of 10 had time to write their will!

Some would survive a tour, or several... Maybe after they would then be wise enough to know not to accept such an offer again."

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So it would seem you refute your own point. There is a real opportunity for those who're fortunate to land a job in the hangars where they don't have to worry about if they'll be alive tomorrow. These jobs are the most impacted as they're the most sought after, so most of the "opportunity" is aboard war-craft.

Sure, the Republic isn't doing it's best but the news lately has been showing some small improvements. The RUN and many other Minmatar corporations have been working to improve our education and quality of life. I have plans as well, so thank you for your snide remarks.