Posted - 2009.10.27 17:06:00 - [1321]

 

I like the new changes to the ammo types. However, to make the full use of it, please let us swap projectile (or at least autocannon) ammo more quickly (I like the idea of 2 seconds, like old Amarr). At this point, there's almost no reason to ever swap ammo, because waiting 10 seconds to fire is a huge disadvantage, much larger than the advantage of being able to have a somewhat better damage type.

Also, DPS will never be artillery's strong point. Alpha is. 1200's also need the very high alpha.

Posted - 2009.10.27 18:09:00 - [1323]

 

Originally by: Linas IV

---

1:Hail (maybe even Barrage) will become complete useless once
we get RF-Fusion with those changes. (better tracking, good dmg)

=> Maybe rethink T2 Ammo for all gun-types alltogether

---

Hail was only marginally useful because fusion sucked. Now it is as useless as Void and Conflag. The problem is about high damage T2 ammunition and their crippling penalties, not about this boost.

Barrage, Scorch and Null are all very useful. These changes in no way affect barrage.

Quote:

---

2:The Naglfar might get pretty OP with choosable dmg-types
compared to Moros or Rev.

---

The Revelation is still by far the best dread even with the improved ability to change damage types from the naglfar.

Posted - 2009.10.27 18:27:00 - [1325]

 

Edited by: Uncle Smokey on 27/10/2009 18:39:44
-give falloff related **** 20% moar OR
-take that 20% off the displayed value OR
-change the displayed value in to full (2x) falloff

Just to make things easier. How about that?

Posted - 2009.10.27 18:42:00 - [1327]

 

Originally by: Pattern Clarc

---

Originally by: Cpt Branko

---

In before "tempest is still crap".

---

I will not rest until this issue is resolved.

---

Ok, but it's a Tempest problem, not a AC problem.

The ship just doesn't know what it wants to do with itself with its layout and double damage bonus but lack of lows for credible BS tank+gank (and small dronebay by BS standards), but it's supposedly versatile because of that, so I just fly something which is more focused towards RRBS action (a Typhoon).

Posted - 2009.10.27 19:00:00 - [1329]

 

Originally by: Cpt Branko

---

Originally by: Pattern Clarc

---

Originally by: Cpt Branko

---

In before "tempest is still crap".

---

I will not rest until this issue is resolved.

---

Ok, but it's a Tempest problem, not a AC problem.

The ship just doesn't know what it wants to do with itself with its layout and double damage bonus but lack of lows for credible BS tank+gank (and small dronebay by BS standards), but it's supposedly versatile because of that, so I just fly something which is more focused towards RRBS action (a Typhoon).

---

Indeed.

Posted - 2009.10.27 19:27:00 - [1331]

 

Originally by: CCP Nozh

---

Thanks for all the feedback, sorry for not being active in the thread, there is tons of other work to do besides posting on the forums (and projectile balancing for that matter). You'll be able to test the second iteration of the projectile changes on Singularity tomorrow.

Ammo Changes - Base Values:

Long Range (1.6 range modifier - 5 damage - 5% tracking bonus):

Carbonized Lead - 4 kinetic / 1 explosive
Nuclear - 4 explosive / 1 kinetic
Proton - 3 em / 2 kinetic

Medium Range (1.0 range modifier - 8 damage - 20% tracking bonus):

Depleted Uranium - 3 explosive / 3 thermal / 2 kinetic
Titanium Sabot - 6 kinetic / 2 explosive

Short Range (0.5 range modifier - 12 damage):

EMP - 9 em / 2 explosive / 1 kinetic
Phased Plasma - 10 thermal / 2 kinetic
Fusion - 10 explosive / 2 kinetic


Tracking Computer / Enhancer changes:

• Tracking Computer falloff bonus fixed.


• Bonus doubled


• Stacking nerfed


• Tracking links also have a falloff modifier

Autocannons / Repeating Artillery

Falloff increases by tier.

I'm still not too happy with these, will be worked on more next iteration.

Artillery

Instead of increasing alpha on both weapon tiers of each size class, you now have a choice.

• 1200's low alpha, fast rate of fire.


• 1400's high alpha, slow rate of fire.

---

Changes look good. Looking forward to trying it out. Having a reason to choose between 1200's and 1400's could be very cool as long as there is a substantial difference between them.

Don't forget to look into how T2 ammo (AC & ATRY) will fit in with the faction ammo of course.

Posted - 2009.10.27 19:31:00 - [1333]

 

Other things to consider.

Reduce the CPU usage of Shield transferers.

Have a second look at Active Tanking Bonuses as they do not compare at all with resistance bonuses (Eg, make them dual bonuses to both Boost amount and cap use, remote repair or HP - similar to the way drone bonuses are applied)

The tempest and fleet tempest need a role. As the Phoon is the gang RR mobile and the maelstrom will always be a better fleet ship - a good idea may be to give the tempest a tracking bonus in exchange for the damage bonus, increase the ROF bonus to 7.5, increase the drone bay/bandwidth to 100mb, together with a 7 med shield tank - as so it's not just another XYZ armour RR BS, Amarr wanna be.>.

Improve the Maelstroms agility.

The Phoon is now perfect.

Faction tracking computers/enhancers should give +40% bonus to fall off.


Otherwise, bring on tomorrow.

Posted - 2009.10.27 20:09:00 - [1335]

 

Interesting changes. I'll take a look at them in depth as soon as I get home. As long as the ambit rig is also doubled, my gut says these changes are good.

-Liang

Posted - 2009.10.27 20:27:00 - [1337]

 

Originally by: Seriously Bored

---

Edited by: Seriously Bored on 27/10/2009 20:11:50

Originally by: Dibsi Dei

---

Please don't take away my EMP...

Changing ammo takes 10 seconds, and that is a lot in pvp.

---

They didn't take it away, they just made it a potent shield killer. :-)

I think you'll like the new PP as much as you like the current EMP. (Invuln/EANM buffer tanked ships have similar EHP against both of them currently).

---

PP was fine against shield tanks and EMP against t2 shield tanks.

EMP being em/kin/exp also meant minmatar ships to be able to fight without bringing 4-5 different ammo in cargo.

Posted - 2009.10.27 20:38:00 - [1339]

 

Edited by: Secluse on 27/10/2009 20:52:41

Originally by: CCP Nozh

---

Medium Range (1.0 range modifier - 8 damage - 20% tracking bonus)

---

The 20% tracking bonus is directly offset by the damage reduction, as it was in the original tweak. I think the ammo tiers are an excellent idea (sort by range, then choose damage type), and the tracking bonus is an *excellent* idea to make mid-range useful - however the bonus is insufficient to make the absolute damage loss of close-range ammo viable.

Originally by: CCP Nozh

---

Tracking Computer / Enhancer changes:

• Tracking Computer falloff bonus fixed.


• Bonus doubled


• Stacking nerfed


• Tracking links also have a falloff modifier

---

I am happy to see that finally falloff is seen to be inferior to optimal in bonuses. Any thoughts to tweak Trajectory Analysis and other falloff modules?

Also, are only falloff modules tracking nerfed (TC / TE / TL), or are the falloff rigs stacking nerfed as well? I am hoping that the rigs are being excluded from the stacking nerf. I.E. I would either like to see Ambits double in value and be stacking nerfed, or left in value and not nerfed.

Originally by: CCP Nozh

---

Autocannons / Repeating Artillery

Falloff increases by tier.

I'm still not too happy with these, will be worked on more next iteration.

---

Excellent. Looking forward to seeing the numbers, finally gives a reason to use 425's potentially.

All-in-all, some great changes. The devil is in the detailed numbers, so it'll be interesting to see how the combination of the all changes work together. Look forward to the SISI update.

Posted - 2009.10.27 20:58:00 - [1341]

 

Originally by: Etho Demerzel

---

What part of Both armor and shield ships having the SAME EHP against the new PP than they had against the old EMP didn't you understand?

---

I tried the carrot, you tried the stick. Hopefully it'll sink in.

Quote:

---

Edit: Oh, and if you want the same exact mix you had before with EMP, just mix the new Fusion and the new EMP between guns. You can even mix the three of them for omni damage as they have exactly the same total damage and exactly the same range now.

---

That's...something I would have never thought about. Omni-damage to fight Omni-tanks. Kind of an interesting (though sub-optimal) idea.

I've heard of missile ships doing this and reloading just one or two launchers mid-fight after keeping an eye on the damage log.

Posted - 2009.10.27 21:28:00 - [1343]

 

/me kisses Nozh on his bald head.

I thought you forgot us and I'm happy its not so.


Now over to some input to what other people posted regarding the Tempest:

I always seen the tier 3 battleships as mainly tankers. So I would never bring a Maelstrom to a fleet bs fight, it is to big, to slow, not that agile and the tank bonus will not make that much of a difference if I get primary by 20+ hostile snipers and are stuck in a bubble dropped by a dictor. With six med slots I either fit it for sniping with 1400's or for tanking, but it is impossible to do both effectively. It also cost more to lose a Maelstrom then a tempest so its not something I think makes sense to bring.

The Tempest was the first BS I trained to level 5 long time ago and used as a sniper in fleets. With no more tank then a DCU I fitted 2 gyros and 2 TE in the low (and one rcu II to fit the mwd+guns) to be able to hit targets as far as the other races bs could do and with effective damage.

I had to give up the tempest when the titan craziness and frequent use of DD become commonplace and go over to a mega instead. And because enemy FC's often primary a tempest first for a reason

With my mega I can fit a good tank with 40k armor hitpoints, my damage is mediocre, but I usually live longer then those who still insist on using the Tempest, and I often survive to return back to base. And the same thing is it regarding RR bs fleets.

I see only one sensible use for the tempest, other then pos-shootings when nothing shoots on you back: as a solo or very small gang bs with AC's and neuts.

I would love to see the ship be a effective sniper but for that the falloff for artillery would have to be increased considerably so it at least can hit to same range as a mega with 250's. Note that I say falloff, not optimal. We don't need it to be a copy of rails.

Artillery also need tracking improved, a lot. Why do tachyons have the best tracking when they have the longest range? The 1400's needs increased tracking so they at least can hit a barn 100 meters away.

Fix these 2 things and I be a happy camper, lol.

Posted - 2009.10.27 21:52:00 - [1345]

 

Originally by: Roemy Schneider

---

but i don't see any use for the d180mm vaga either
i'd prefer more falloff on _lower_ tiers tbh

---

Agreed.

Posted - 2009.10.27 22:01:00 - [1347]

 

Originally by: Etho Demerzel

---

Oh, and if you want the same exact mix you had before with EMP, just mix the new Fusion and the new EMP between guns.

---

Weapon grouping has destroyed my brain.

Posted - 2009.10.27 22:14:00 - [1349]

 

Edited by: Liang Nuren on 27/10/2009 22:19:36

Originally by: Dibsi Dei

---

There is still the other matter though, nuclear and other long range ammo getting a 30% damage reduction. Minmatar snipers didn't have that much damage anyways compared to others.

---

That's true, but you can't have everything. As it stands, they quite reasonable damage up close, very very reasonable optimal+falloff (really, you should examine this before complaining aout your sniper damage), etc.

We don't WANT projectiles to become the new lasers "WAAAH BUT MY $WEAPON_SYSTEM_X ISN'T AS GOOD AS PROJECTILES!". No, that's just asking to have your candy taken away.

-Liang

Ed: I'm just trying to say that we want to be *competitive* with the other races... not flat out better in most reasonable respects. The other races have their holes in what they can do as well, so it's not inarguable that we should have some as well. At this point we're running dangerously close to turning overpowered.... so it's not appropriate to keep asking for more.