| Author |
Topic |
Nuts Nougat
SniggWaffe
FREE KARTTOON NOW |
Posted - 2009.10.22 13:21:00 - [ 1261]
Edited by: Nuts Nougat on 22/10/2009 13:30:46Edited by: Nuts Nougat on 22/10/2009 13:24:17 Originally by: Pattern Clarc
Originally by: Mindo Junde
Why is grouping arty Dumb? Be nice to the noob
You avoid overkill (wasted dps) with ungrouped guns, especially now with +/-10k alpha 1400mm's. This allows you to put dps onto the secondary target within the first volley from the turrets that didn't activate (because the primary target no longer exists).
This. Imagine shooting at something in a 1400mm mael. If you have guns grouped you will do 10000 damage, whether it's a bs, a cruiser or a frig. On a BS, it won't really make much difference, you'll lose a couple guns every bunch of volleys. On a cruiser, it might already make your killing slower, especially if it survives the first volley with only some hull left. On a frig, a single gun doing a clean hit (i.e. non-glancing hits) will often pop them. This means if you grouped your guns you did 10k damage to a frig with 1k ehp, whereas if you have your guns ungrouped, you can kill 8 frigs in 1 volley. Before CCP broke gun priming, doing level 1 missions in a thrasher was pretty funny. You would f1-f7, and started to lock 7 targets. You would then often see no lock icons popping up, just 7 frigates turning into 7 explosions, and would repeat the procedure on the next 7 frigs (most frigs in level 1s have almost no hp). Again, if you had guns grouped, you'd just hit a single one for a huge amount of damage, and then sit there for 10 seconds, doing nothing. Edit @ Chi: you can always just f1-f4 with one hand and f5-f8 with the other and it'll be the same as if you grouped your guns (this is doable with one hand, there's just half a second delay between first four and second four guns). But if the target died somewhere in between, any guns that would otherwise just cause overkill will never have activated, allowing you to use them on the secondary right away. In fact, if you have another target locked, they often fire if there's enough lag which can be really annoying if you have someone you want to remote rep locked.. |
Yoshi Abe
Minmatar
Pangalactic Gargle Blasters |
Posted - 2009.10.22 13:23:00 - [ 1262]
Originally by: Pattern Clarc
Also guys, stop feeding trolls.
QFFT |
Caldor Mansi |
Posted - 2009.10.22 13:28:00 - [ 1263]
Originally by: Chi Quan
hmmm... how practical is that with large arties, especially in large(er) fleets? my thought being: if you activate 7 guns successively, you loose your alpha-advantage due to lag and communication delay. your fleet primaries+one-volleys the target intentionally, so it seems moot not to group. it would make more sense to let everyone with a large alpha hit the primary and most of the rest to go after secondary.
I think he talks in solo/PVE use. It is pointless in fleet, of course. I assume, you could fire your guns in a sequence one at a time to maximally utilize high alpha but...it's a bit cumbersome and tedious. |
Maxsim Goratiev
Gallente
Imperial Tau Syndicate
POD-SQUAD |
Posted - 2009.10.22 13:52:00 - [ 1264]
Edited by: Maxsim Goratiev on 22/10/2009 13:53:30
I tried fitting projectiles on to my ship. Large ones.
I tried using the smallest, and the medium scaled artillery auto canons. the larger ones need more powergrid,more cpu, have lass tracking, same dps and pretty much same range. (less then a kilometer, when using em, which is a very small difference.
So i just stuck with the smaller version, also there meta 4 variation is dirt cheap.
When you use electron blasters on battleships, instead of neutron ones, you loose alot of range.
When i use dual 450mm (is it 450?) autocanon, i have same range as with 800. The difference is tiny. |
Nuts Nougat
SniggWaffe
FREE KARTTOON NOW |
Posted - 2009.10.22 14:43:00 - [ 1265]
Originally by: Maxsim Goratiev
Edited by: Maxsim Goratiev on 22/10/2009 13:53:30
I tried fitting projectiles on to my ship. Large ones.
I tried using the smallest, and the medium scaled artillery auto canons. the larger ones need more powergrid,more cpu, have lass tracking, same dps and pretty much same range. (less then a kilometer, when using em, which is a very small difference.
So i just stuck with the smaller version, also there meta 4 variation is dirt cheap.
When you use electron blasters on battleships, instead of neutron ones, you loose alot of range.
When i use dual 450mm (is it 450?) autocanon, i have same range as with 800. The difference is tiny.
This is why I hope they will add falloff to dual 650mm and 800mm. |
Polinus
Caldari
Emptiness.
|
Posted - 2009.10.22 15:04:00 - [ 1266]
Let me re-summarize...
New large arties will be CONSIDERABLY better for people WITH BRAINS.. and on a significant set of scenarios. Not to EVERYONE and not on every scenario. That is GOOD game balance.
Its undeniable.. new arties with new EMP ammo and track computer/enhancer changes ARE better than old ones gamewise, since they allow arties to shine in a select groups of situations. Before changes they were worthless in ALL situations. |
Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
K162 |
Posted - 2009.10.22 15:14:00 - [ 1267]
This is why would be better if they just increased large ac optimal range by 200-250% and medium ac optimal by 100% putting them between blasters and lasers.
With the tier optimal multiplied, you'll suddenly have a reason to fit higher tiers. It's also less likely to create balance problems than adding 50% more fall off (ac fall off is a big number +more minmatar ships have fall of bonuses.)
As for Artillery,
I'm 50/50 on whether or not the ammo tracking changes are good or not. As it stands Depleted Uranium is the only one with the 20% tracking increase. It would be better as I mentioned on the very first post to simplify the whole ammo selection by making a middle tier of ammo with roughly +20% tracking, the same range, and same damage amount but with different ammo types. Right now, proton just seems to be the best combination of range, damage and tracking for 80% of normal usage.
Also, there needs to be either a damage, or optimal range increase to artillery, having by far the worst tracking, optimal range and damage over time isn't really balanced and excludes there usefulness in a number of situations. Ideally, adding a new tier of artillery along with a fitting increase to the Maelstrom would solve the problem.
However, I still feel that until something changes (slot and bonus wise) with the Tempest and Fleet Tempest, these changes will probably seem unsatifactory to most. (Hints, 6 low slots suck, Navy Domi/Fleet Phoon > Fleet Pest, there twice as many armour tanking BS's as there are shield tanking bs's) |
Gamrikis |
Posted - 2009.10.22 18:53:00 - [ 1268]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Gamrikis
Edited by: Gamrikis on 22/10/2009 01:40:17
If it not to much to ask, Can I get the equations used plus the accuracy falloff and optimal? Would like to play with this a bit.
Original Formula by Naughty Boy
chance to hit = ((1.0/2.0) ** ((((Transv/(Range*Tracking))*(Sig_Res/Sig_Rad)) ** 2) +((max(0,Range-Optimal))/Falloff) ** 2))
Original hit quality formula by KzIg (http://www.scrapheap-challenge.com/viewtopic.php?p=114333#114333)
Expected damage per shot = normal damage * [min(chance to hit, 1%)*3 + max(0,chance to hit - 1%)*(0.99+chance to hit)/2]
-Liang
Your the tops Liang, thanks for the the formulas and links to where they came from. |
Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
|
Posted - 2009.10.23 01:02:00 - [ 1269]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 23/10/2009 01:04:30 Originally by: Able Pat
I have to say I like EMP ammo the way it is.
I think it is more useful having max damage against shields like this because where we can neut other ships to stop repping, passive shield tanks can only be countered with a bit more firepower. Better for solo work in my opinon.
We've also got the t2 ammo if we need to do more damage against armour tanks.
Preety much. Being able to do both largely EM (via EMP) and explosive (via Hail) is a strong point of Minmatar guns. Sure, T2 ammo sucks when you fire at targets below you or in frigate hulls with their unscrammable ABs, but it works just fine for same-sized targets really, and I will take genuine damage type versatility over "ease of use" any time of the day tbh. Also: people, please do not base your projectile suggestions around the Tempest. Any projectile changes which make the Tempest good still make all other alternatives better. The Tempest is a troubled ship. With it's 5/6 layout and 6 turrets it's never going to be competitive in the realm of gank/buffer BS. |
Neutrino Sunset
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
Sanctuary Pact |
Posted - 2009.10.23 08:56:00 - [ 1270]
Originally by: Pattern Clarc
Also, there needs to be either a damage, or optimal range increase to artillery, having by far the worst tracking, optimal range and damage over time isn't really balanced and excludes there usefulness in a number of situations. Ideally, adding a new tier of artillery along with a fitting increase to the Maelstrom would solve the problem.
I don't follow your logic here. Increasing arty range doesn't make sense from an RP perspective, why would what are basically cannons fire as far as lasers or rails? It doesn't make sense from a game balance perspective, we already have 3 other races with turret weapons squabbling over who should have the longest range guns, adding range to arty would increase homogeneaity which is bad. It doesn't make sense from a Minmatar playstyle perspective. Many folks chose Minmatar because they wanted to use tactics based on speed and manouverability instead of doing dps from standoff range. What imo would make more sense in light of the above points would be to boost Arty's tracking such that the gun's new alpha can be effectively applied at the shorter range at which it operates when fit to the Minmatar's (conceptually) faster and more nimble BS (except for the Maelstrom which for reasons unknown is a brick). --- What follows isn't a reply to the above quote. Until such a time that arty doesn't have the worst dps, worst range and worst tracking it's difficult to see how the proposed changes can be called a successful rebalancing. There is a marginal dps buff that is largely offset by making the guns much more difficult to use, and a downright bizarre tracking buff which is tiny compared to the degree by which arty tracking is overshadowed by Megabeams and which you only get with a few crap types of T1 ammo anyway. A useful arty fix would have been to give arty the tracking of megabeams and three tiers of ammo that allow us to sort of choose damage type. That wouldn't have made Minmatar BS great snipers, but no one really uses them for that anyway, but it would have made them interesting for hit and runs and more usable for PvE. AC aren't buffed by adding falloff to modules because large AC are already outclassed by blasters out to beyond warp disruptor range and adding the falloff to modules only further boosts neutrons, and this change is academic anyway because who has space to fit tracking mods on close range turret boats. The ammo changes so far only go part way to redressing the fact that our ammo was unfairly nerfed in the first place and the fact that our weapons are hampered by the multiple drawbacks of operating in falloff. A useful fix to AC would have been 30-50% falloff buff to the guns or ammo and a pulse laser tracking reduction. Having three tiers of ammo to allow selectable damage types being the cherry on the cake. Some people have questioned what the point of this thread was, only for other replies to insinuate that it's somehow the players fault that the same ideas keep being reiterated while there is currently a lot of general dissatisfaction being expressed. I would have hoped that the point of this thread was to get players feedback from testing a range of different implementations to get a feel for what would work. It's not the players fault that hasn't happened and that instead of providing a range of implementations for us to test the devs have basically rolled out one set of fairly crap changes and then silence for weeks on end to the point where it's quite possibly too late to test any more meaningful changes. Not that I ever for a moment seriously expected CCP to incorporate into their development process any semblance of a dialog with the only people that actually play the game. The opening tone of this thread might have got the hopes of newer players up but I don't think that many of us who are more used to the way CCP does things have been surprised at how this is turning out. ... |
Neutrino Sunset
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
Sanctuary Pact |
Posted - 2009.10.23 08:57:00 - [ 1271]
In conclusion unless something dramatic occurs it's starting to look very much as if this is going to be a bit of a washout to me.
|
Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
|
Posted - 2009.10.23 12:18:00 - [ 1272]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 23/10/2009 12:20:16
As I said, you need to stop looking at the Tempest as the definitive Minmatar large AC platform when looking at projectile balance. A ship which cannot fit a sensible amount of damage mods and anything resembling a tank and has 6 (sure, dual bonused, but still inferior to the Mael's 8) with 75m3 bandwidth cannot possibly be competitive without overboosting ACs by a lot.
The thing which would benefit Minmatar BS would be more sensible scaling of AC tiers (basically; making 425s/800s make more sense) and a specific Tempest fix.
As for large arty changes; the large arties are slightly boosted by range mods adding falloff, so they have more effective range, which helps vs at least one complaint. On the other hand, the huge alpha but horrible rof... well, it makes them different, but I'm not sure whether that's a boost for actual fleet usage (mind you, I do not have fleet combat experience). I can see it being somewhat useful in small gangs, in certain scenarios where the alpha could be put to good use.
Small gang use of arties in general is boosted by more effective faction ammo, which is a very welcome change.
As for arty tracking; yes, it's downright horrible, and in a way it does not make sense that a conceptually short range weapon system has such bad tracking. You can live with it on sub-BS platforms though.
|
Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
K162 |
Posted - 2009.10.23 12:27:00 - [ 1273]
Originally by: Neutrino Sunset
I don't follow your logic here.
Increasing arty range doesn't make sense from an RP perspective, why would what are basically cannons fire as far as lasers or rails?
...
It's not really an RP question, and as we're in space, without atmospheric drag etc, talking about range is a moot point. It really boils down to this, minmatar players don't believe they need to train another race to participate within fleet sniping. They want a ship that can hit and hit well 180-220km. From a game design perceptive, it seems unwise to not provide this option to an activity as common as fleet sniping as it leads to mass migration and the more serious type of racial homogenisation - which is happening in droves at the moment. |
Kalia Masaer
Amarr Border Defense Consortium |
Posted - 2009.10.23 15:34:00 - [ 1274]
I recently had some time to play around with the arty changes on sisi some more.
My conclusion is the that +50% ROF and Damage changes to medium arty doesn't really drastically change their utility, they seem to track well enough that their alpha still works on moving targets as long as they are not really fast or close. A few slight changes in tactics and I was doing alright. In no way can I call the change a buff but it doesn't hurt the medium arties just makes them different. And unfortunantly probably rather good for suicide ganking haulers.
Large arties on the other hand do not seem to suffer with their +75% ROF and Damage change, yes they do become a more tolerable asset to a fleet in long range combat situation when you are not moving against slow or stationary targets and would probably be great for suicide ganking at gates. These improvements don't seem to make up for the fact that at closer range or against faster targets they virtually have no chance to recover the massive amount of damage lost by a single volley that misses do to tracking due to the glacial rate of fire.
So if the goal was to make the weapon sytem slightly more useful for sniping at the expense of general utility well the objective is complete unfortunantly it does not make the weapon particularly good at sniping considering the fragile nature of minmatar ships and their need to rely on speed and mobility to stay alive.
I really do not see how the change to large arty in anyway serves to balance out the large turrets if anything I think it actually drops their general performance in comparison to the other turrets. The same main issues still remain, hitting the target and lack of an effective sniper platform.
I feel the entire philosphy of Large arty must change, as it stands on TQ at the moment they are sorta like the crappy version of rails. Perhaps it should be that arty is changed to be more like AC's, the shortest optimal, immense fall-off, and improved tracking. I don't really know but I do know that the large arty on Sisi is in no way rebalanced. |
Neutrino Sunset
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
Sanctuary Pact |
Posted - 2009.10.23 17:58:00 - [ 1275]
Originally by: Pattern Clarc
It really boils down to this, minmatar players don't believe they need to train another race to participate within fleet sniping. They want a ship that can hit and hit well 180-220km. From a game design perceptive, it seems unwise to not provide this option to an activity as common as fleet sniping as it leads to mass migration and the more serious type of racial homogenisation - which is happening in droves at the moment.
Speak for yourself :) I for one would be quite happy with Minmatar snipers having 30km less effective range if in return I got good alpha and tracking. I don't see the need for all race's sniper BS to have nearly identical capabilities, I think that's detrimental to the cause of diverse tactics. It might mean Minmatar snipers have to be handled differently to other race's snipers, but some folks might actually like those differences. At the moment the problem is that there's absolutely nothing to like about Minmatar sniper BS, to my mind the challange is to make them somehow interesting and useful but not clones of everything that already exists. |
Liang Nuren |
Posted - 2009.10.23 18:48:00 - [ 1276]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 23/10/2009 18:52:28 Originally by: Pattern Clarc
It really boils down to this, minmatar players don't believe they need to train another race to participate within fleet sniping. They want a ship that can hit and hit well 180-220km. From a game design perceptive, it seems unwise to not provide this option to an activity as common as fleet sniping as it leads to mass migration and the more serious type of racial homogenisation - which is happening in droves at the moment.
[Tempest, 0.0 Sniperpest Cheap] Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Reactor Control Unit II Damage Control II 100MN MicroWarpdrive I Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Sabretooth Light Missile Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Sabretooth Light Missile Large Ionic Field Projector I Large Ionic Field Projector I Large Projectile Ambit Extension I Medium Armor Maintenance Bot I x5 Warrior II x5 I'm seeing 356 DPS @ 152.4 + 76.5km, so roughly ~320-290 DPS @ standard sniping ranges. It's not terrible performance. -Liang Ed: [Maelstrom, 160km Arty Mael] Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Tracking Enhancer II Damage Control II 100MN MicroWarpdrive I Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Invulnerability Field II 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Large Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I Vespa EC-600 x5 Vespa EC-600 x5 380 DPS @ 152+66km (~300 DPS @190km) Really, the changes are worth testing on TQ.... even if the tracking is a bit low. Their argument that high alpha => low tracking because hits mean more is complete bunk. Because misses mean more too. Tracking could use some lovin', but all together the changes are pretty decent. |
Seriously Bored
Minmatar |
Posted - 2009.10.23 19:31:00 - [ 1277]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Actual Minmatar Sniping?
Those are damn interesting. I was wondering if falloff sniping could be viable at all. Even though they don't have DDs to worry about so much any more, I'm curious what each of those fit's EHP is though. |
Liang Nuren |
Posted - 2009.10.23 19:44:00 - [ 1278]
Originally by: Seriously Bored
I'm curious what each of those fit's EHP is though.
Gimme an E! Gimme an F! Gimme a T! -Liang |
Seriously Bored
Minmatar |
Posted - 2009.10.23 20:10:00 - [ 1279]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Gimme an E!
Gimme an F!
Gimme a T!
Gimme P, Y, F, A! No, seriously. I've been trying to get it to work for weeks.  I guess the Mael's should be easy enough to look up in EFT though (its HP isn't changing like the Pest's). I have to keep reminding myself this thread isn't in S&M... |
Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
K162 |
Posted - 2009.10.23 20:34:00 - [ 1280]
Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 23/10/2009 20:35:04 Originally by: Liang Nuren
Really, the changes are worth testing on TQ.... even if the tracking is a bit low.
It would be nice to test any of this on Sisi, however tracking computers still don't provide fall off bonuses and there's no word on whether the current method of stacking is a bug or a feature. For instance, you can get +150km fall off using 1400m's and Depleted Uranium with 3 tracking enhancers and 3 ambit extension rigs. Also, fighting in fall off, along with ****ty tracking is another thing that diminishes the alpha advantage even further but I guess sticking to "Hurf-bluf Falloff" means more to you guys than actual effectiveness. |
Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
K162 |
Posted - 2009.10.23 21:03:00 - [ 1281]
Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 23/10/2009 21:13:37Rokh Compared the the Maelstrom Slightly more EHP, slower, slightly less agility. 320 (without reload time accounted for as in your setups) dps @ 183+50km 3x the tracking using CN Iridium. [Rokh, Fleet sniper] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Damage Control II Power Diagnostic System II Quad LiF Fueled I Booster Rockets Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Iridium Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Iridium Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Iridium Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Iridium Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Iridium Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Iridium Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Iridium Charge L 425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Iridium Charge L Large Core Defence Field Extender I Large Core Defence Field Extender I Large Core Defence Field Extender I Or you could just use spike, change a tracking computer for an invul and hit 305 dps out to 250km with 15% more tracking with 20k more ehp. Hyperion Compared the the Maelstrom 1k more EHP, the same speed, better agility. 401 dps (without reload time accounted for as in your setups) @ 183+50km 15% more tracking tracking using spike. [Hyperion, rails] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Damage Control II Quad LiF Fueled I Booster Rockets Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range 425mm Railgun II, Spike L 425mm Railgun II, Spike L 425mm Railgun II, Spike L 425mm Railgun II, Spike L 425mm Railgun II, Spike L 425mm Railgun II, Spike L 425mm Railgun II, Spike L 425mm Railgun II, Spike L Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I And then it gets somewhat laughable when you compare with Ammarian battleships. But yeah, i'm probably going to be accused of ETF ***gotry however these setups are pretty similar to the ones I used in BOB. The only time I ever considered flying a maelstrom was for BS POS bashing without logistics. |
Liang Nuren |
Posted - 2009.10.23 21:25:00 - [ 1282]
Originally by: Pattern Clarc
320 (without reload time accounted for as in your setups) dps @ 183+50km 3x the tracking using CN Iridium.
Or you could just use spike, change a tracking computer for an invul and hit 305 dps out to 250km with 15% more tracking with 20k more ehp.
[Rokh, Fleet sniper]
...
1k more EHP, the same speed, better agility.
401 dps (without reload time accounted for as in your setups) @ 183+50km 15% more tracking tracking using spike.
[Hyperion, rails]
...
And then it gets somewhat laughable when you compare with Ammarian battleships.
I await your 11K alpha Hype and Rokh. They're different. This is good. -Liang |
Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
K162 |
Posted - 2009.10.23 21:27:00 - [ 1283]
|
1600 RT |
Posted - 2009.10.24 10:10:00 - [ 1284]
|
Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
K162 |
Posted - 2009.10.24 10:51:00 - [ 1285]
Originally by: 1600 RT
Originally by: Pattern Clarc
[Just fit 1400mm's II's instead of Hybrids.
im sure the rokh have enough grid for that
The Rokh and the Hyperion have about the same amount of grid, they fit 1400mm's just as easily as the Vargur. If the only thing you care about is 11k alpha and ehp, with range, tracking and damage being secondary concerns, then the Abaddon is by far the best artillery platform, only difference is you'll have to wait a few more seconds per volley. |
Caldor Mansi |
Posted - 2009.10.24 10:59:00 - [ 1286]
Originally by: Kalia Masaer
I recently had some time to play around with the arty changes on sisi some more.
My conclusion is the that +50% ROF and Damage changes to medium arty doesn't really drastically change their utility, they seem to track well enough that their alpha still works on moving targets as long as they are not really fast or close. A few slight changes in tactics and I was doing alright. In no way can I call the change a buff but it doesn't hurt the medium arties just makes them different. And unfortunantly probably rather good for suicide ganking haulers.
Large arties on the other hand do not seem to suffer with their +75% ROF and Damage change, yes they do become a more tolerable asset to a fleet in long range combat situation when you are not moving against slow or stationary targets and would probably be great for suicide ganking at gates. These improvements don't seem to make up for the fact that at closer range or against faster targets they virtually have no chance to recover the massive amount of damage lost by a single volley that misses do to tracking due to the glacial rate of fire.
So if the goal was to make the weapon sytem slightly more useful for sniping at the expense of general utility well the objective is complete unfortunantly it does not make the weapon particularly good at sniping considering the fragile nature of minmatar ships and their need to rely on speed and mobility to stay alive.
I really do not see how the change to large arty in anyway serves to balance out the large turrets if anything I think it actually drops their general performance in comparison to the other turrets. The same main issues still remain, hitting the target and lack of an effective sniper platform.
I feel the entire philosphy of Large arty must change, as it stands on TQ at the moment they are sorta like the crappy version of rails. Perhaps it should be that arty is changed to be more like AC's, the shortest optimal, immense fall-off, and improved tracking. I don't really know but I do know that the large arty on Sisi is in no way rebalanced.
Thank you for actualy testing the concerns and balance of changes. |
Lugalzagezi666 |
Posted - 2009.10.24 11:46:00 - [ 1287]
Looks like what you want here is optimal range bonus on minnie bs... because that makes apoc/rokh best snipers.
|
Caldor Mansi |
Posted - 2009.10.24 12:31:00 - [ 1288]
Edited by: Caldor Mansi on 24/10/2009 12:32:06 Originally by: Lugalzagezi666
Looks like what you want here is optimal range bonus on minnie bs... because that makes apoc/rokh best snipers.
Actually not. What makes lasers superior is their tracking. Together with their natural long range, they outperform everything in all ranges below. Sure, they will still outperform all other turret platforms when you shoot webbed or stationary target but it is the only thing that is left to make a difference here - ability to hit smaller and moving targets. |
Tokran Inami
Matari Exodus |
Posted - 2009.10.24 12:32:00 - [ 1289]
Edited by: Tokran Inami on 24/10/2009 12:32:13 Originally by: Cpt Branko
Being able to do both largely EM (via EMP) and explosive (via Hail) is a strong point of Minmatar guns.
Sure, T2 ammo sucks when you fire at targets below you or in frigate hulls with their unscrammable ABs, but it works just fine for same-sized targets really, and I will take genuine damage type versatility over "ease of use" any time of the day tbh.
So you call 45% EM largely EM damage? With 36% beeing Exp, wich is highest Shield resist? You could with the same argumentation tell EMP beeing great against armor while in reality its only mediocre against both. Hail working fine against targets of your size? A Tempest with 800mm ACs and all lvl 5 skills cant even track a standard non-ABed, webbed and scrammed BS orbiting it at close Range. Only use for hail is for shooting ships LARGER than your size category while youself dont need any cap. In my opinion the damage type versatility is a joke, far from beeing genuine. This may change if you could actually change ammo instantly as lasers do. Not realistic, i know, but maybe good for balance |
Caldor Mansi |
Posted - 2009.10.24 12:37:00 - [ 1290]
Originally by: Tokran Inami
Hail working fine against targets of your size? A Tempest with 800mm ACs and all lvl 5 skills cant even track a standard non-ABed, webbed and scrammed BS orbiting it at close Range. Only use for hail is for shooting ships LARGER than your size category while youself dont need any cap.
If it is 1v1 situation you talk about and you both use web without AB, there is no way you can miss nor you can really orbit anything. |
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