| Author |
Topic |
F15T0 |
Posted - 2009.09.22 04:25:00 - [ 31]
 Originally by: Uronksur Suth
poast
I think you are the gibbering idiot here, a mobile phone contract is a service provided by a company the only thing you own is the phone the servers the lines, the masts etc are owned by the service provider if a customer has paid for a service and does not receive it he is protected by law. Its no use the service provider claiming that he breached the contract and its up to an outside agency like watchdogs or trading standards to determine who broke the contract and if the company is abusing consumers rights. |
Lotus Sutra
Caldari
Sutra Inc
|
Posted - 2009.09.22 04:33:00 - [ 32]
Originally by: Uronksur Suth
And for the love of God, PLEASE realize that video game characters have no real monetary worth whatsoever. Thats one of those things you agreed in the contract.
You would be wrong. Do your research. The courts in the United States anyway, have already said that a character does have a real world value. I can't remember what game it was, WoW or Everquest or some similar game. The lawsuit was a few years ago. But the courts forced Sony or Blizzard or whoever it was to re-reimburse a player monetarily (or group, like I said it was a few years ago, and I don't remember all the details) for a players time and effort on a character that they wrongfully deleted permanently. I will see if I can find the article in question that had the information in it and link it. Stating that CCP is an Icelandic company and not subject to US laws would also be erroneous as they do business in the united states by 'selling' their product (the game) here for US citizens to play, and as such ARE subject to applicable US laws and Judgments. |
Uronksur Suth |
Posted - 2009.09.22 04:34:00 - [ 33]
Edited by: Uronksur Suth on 22/09/2009 04:41:51You know what, just to check that. I looked up Sprint's terms of service and checked. Um. Your wrong.  Originally by: Sprint
Our Right To Suspend Or Terminate Services
We can, without notice, suspend or terminate any Service at any time for any reason:.....(g) breaching the Agreement, including our Policies;...
epic fail  Originally by: Lotus Sutra
You would be wrong. Do your research. The courts in the United States anyway, have already said that a character does have a real world value. I can't remember what game it was, WoW or Everquest or some similar game. The lawsuit was a few years ago. But the courts forced Sony or Blizzard or whoever it was to re-reimburse a player monetarily (or group, like I said it was a few years ago, and I don't remember all the details) for a players time and effort on a character that they wrongfully deleted permanently.
I will see if I can find the article in question that had the information in it and link it.
You'll understand if I'm skeptical until you find it. And look at what CCP has in their Terms of Service! Originally by: CCP
We reserve the right to ban any user from the game without refund or compensation.
|
Hakon Andarison |
Posted - 2009.09.22 04:36:00 - [ 34]
Originally by: Serge Bastana
I know that very news story, the UK is becoming more letigious by the week.
Seconded; bloody common law... |
Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech |
Posted - 2009.09.22 04:46:00 - [ 35]
ISK sellers getting hit by the ban hammer!
FINALLY |
F15T0 |
Posted - 2009.09.22 04:50:00 - [ 36]
The point about what the EULA says and what you agree to are rather moot in any case because any legislation would overwrite whatever a service provider puts in the contract because to be able to operate as a recognised service provider they would have to create and ensure any terms of service are within the legislation.
IE they could not say "we can ban you whenever we want and deny you acsess to items with a defined value that are traded for real world currency"
So "blah blah the EULA says" is pointless anyway. |
Stupid McStupidson
Gallente
Hoek Lyne and Sinker
|
Posted - 2009.09.22 04:52:00 - [ 37]
I'm sure the large number of people who've successfully unbanned their accounts through GD appeals is what motivated you to this thread. |
Uronksur Suth |
Posted - 2009.09.22 04:57:00 - [ 38]
Originally by: F15T0
IE they could not say "we can ban you whenever we want and deny you acsess to items with a defined value that are traded for real world currency"
So "blah blah the EULA says" is pointless anyway.
No, because you only get banned when YOU VIOLATE THE CONTRACT first. Don't you get it? No one gets randomly banned for no reason, which you claim happens without any basis. People at the VERY LEAST are accused of violating the contract, thereby forfeiting the rights you have under the contract. You do know that technically CCP is within their rights to sue everyone they ban for material damages due to breach of contract, right? |
Ryan Brabovski
EXTERMINATUS.
Nulli Secunda |
Posted - 2009.09.22 04:59:00 - [ 39]
Oh Rhodin's gonna love this |
Nuzzy Futs
Amarr
Hedion University
|
Posted - 2009.09.22 05:03:00 - [ 40]
Originally by: Uronksur Suth
No it doesn't. I can't think of a single country that FORCES companies to do business with people. While I personally think the OP really isn't guilty of participating in RMT, there's no legal way to FORCE CCP to do further business with him, and any attempt to amend the law to allow for this would turn the legislator proposing it into a laughingstock.
The United States; look a red lining as it pertains to insurance, before the banking collapse you could also reference the community banking act (not sure if this one was changed) - Two examples of companies being fored to deal with customers they chose not to. That said - Petitions are then only way to have CCP look into this a forum post doesn't help , unless you have run out of recourses under their system. Bottom line is they own everything on their servers your only 'rights' are wether or not you cut them a check. |
Uronksur Suth |
Posted - 2009.09.22 05:05:00 - [ 41]
Edited by: Uronksur Suth on 22/09/2009 05:10:38
The idea that video game characters have value, and that banned players should SUE the companies which banned them for THEFT when they breached contract, and were then banned pursuant to that contract, hurts my head.
Now to mention its debatable whether our characters belong to us at all, since they all exist exclusively on privately owned servers as part of a simulation which is a privately owned intellectual property
EDIT: And Nuzzy, you are right. There are exceptions and I shouldn't have said something like "I can't think of a single" when I was being so general. I was thinking more in the lines of privately owned restaurants and stores as opposed to financial institutions like insurance companies and banks, which have much more regulation in place, because I consider CCP to be more akin to the former then the latter. |
Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
|
Posted - 2009.09.22 05:12:00 - [ 42]
If you violate CCP's EULA they are well within their rights to ban you, just as the cell phone company in your example can terminate your service at any point if you violate their terms of service.
Yes, there are a couple of "urban legend" stories of MMO companies being told they can not ban people, I have looked them up and read them before. Please do find them, and read them carefully. You will see that they either do not apply, or in fact that the final decision was the opposite of what the attention getting title of the story alludes to. It's called "sensationalism" and is done quiet often in the media.
If you escalate the petition a senior GM will indeed review your case. However in the case of a banning usually this process has already been done. Since your money transactions took place during a time when CCP was meticulously going over suspicious activity with a fine toothed comb, do you really think that they haven't examined all of the financial transactions by all of your alts on all of your accounts?
I have little doubt you have only presented a carefully cleansed version of what you have actually been up to, just like every other "innocent victim" that posts the same thing on these boards, only to inevitably prove to be full of it when the full facts come out. Presumably the theory is that if you mix enough half truths and ambiguities into your accounting you will either force CCP to reconsider or spur the more naive among the players to emo-rage-quit and have some measure of revenge on your way out the door.
No, the only mystery here is that the thread hasn't been locked already.
|
fuze
Gallente
Quam Singulari |
Posted - 2009.09.22 05:16:00 - [ 43]
Originally by: voogru
The alliance apparently was involved with ISK selling and you supplied their ISK selling account with ISK.
So it appears CCP is absolutely correct that, you supplied a holding character with billions of ISK which then got RMT’ed.
Granted, you should not be held liable if someone sells ISK that you sent to them, but when there are multiple transactions with obscure reasons or no reasons at all you have to believe there is something fishy going on.
What alliance was this? Surely you would remember the alliance? Do you remember ANYTHING about a character you sent over two billion ISK too, for ‘mining rights’?
Give us the name of that alliance. NOW! |
Blane Xero
Amarr
The Firestorm Cartel
|
Posted - 2009.09.22 05:16:00 - [ 44]
Originally by: Ranger 1
do you really think that they haven't examined all of the financial transactions by all of your alts on all of your accounts?
How is a GM Supposed to be able to tell who my alts are? If i pay for them with PLEX/GTC you cant tell if they are just ingame friends or, my alts. |
Manu Hermanus
FaDoyToy |
Posted - 2009.09.22 05:17:00 - [ 45]
OverKill did business with the enemy, In return CCP took his ships, his isk, and his account.
although really, is GD the best place for this? |
Ilatius |
Posted - 2009.09.22 05:18:00 - [ 46]
Originally by: Blane Xero
Originally by: Ranger 1
do you really think that they haven't examined all of the financial transactions by all of your alts on all of your accounts?
How is a GM Supposed to be able to tell who my alts are? If i pay for them with PLEX/GTC you cant tell if they are just ingame friends or, my alts.
Because you never log in using the same ip right? *rolls eyes* |
DigitalCommunist
November Corporation |
Posted - 2009.09.22 05:21:00 - [ 47]
OverKill is such a pacifist, carebear and all-around old fart that paying for mining rights seems like a perfect fit for him. People these days don't do this because they weren't raised in an environment where mining is a relevant/efficient way to make money, and paying others for your personal safety is a wise/sensible thing to do.
But, I wouldn't be terribly surprised either. People who devote themselves to playing the industrial game and making money that long must eventually face the fact that you can't grasp any power through creation alone. Especially now that pvp is so devoid of economic consequence, having big isk doesn't give you control over others in the least.
When that reality kicks in, the efforts put into obtaining ingame power tend to be shifted to cashing out in order to make the time and work spent all those years "worth it". I've seen it a lot of times, even in people who insisted on being admired and respected within the community.
But I personally suspect he's got too much pride in that sort of thing to risk going out as a third rate cheater. And even if he accepted that sort of inevitable end he wouldn't be starting a thread about it to effectively sabotage his own reputation. In case of a failed appeal, he'd go quietly and let people think he got bored of the game or something.
So tbh voogru, insisting there is anything damning here is a little odd. I have nothing against you, but even so, I find it incredibly ironic you'd start lynching anyone in a 'sympathy for the accused' thread. As I recall, you effectively bragged about duping isk and then getting your permaban reduced.
Maybe this is like, some kind of gemini-era carebear rivalry resurfacing or w/e |
Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
|
Posted - 2009.09.22 05:21:00 - [ 48]
|
Blane Xero
Amarr
The Firestorm Cartel
|
Posted - 2009.09.22 05:23:00 - [ 49]
|
Carlo Curiosus
Curious Corp
EVE Trade Alliance |
Posted - 2009.09.22 05:25:00 - [ 50]
Originally by: Ranger 1
Yes, there are a couple of "urban legend" stories of MMO companies being told they can not ban people, I have looked them up and read them before. Please do find them, and read them carefully. You will see that they either do not apply, or in fact that the final decision was the opposite of what the attention getting title of the story alludes to. It's called "sensationalism" and is done quiet often in the media.
BlackSnow seems to the most referenced. Someone is also apparently suing Square-Enix for deleting their character (after 2 years of not playing FFXI...). |
Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
|
Posted - 2009.09.22 05:27:00 - [ 51]
|
Uronksur Suth |
Posted - 2009.09.22 05:28:00 - [ 52]
Edited by: Uronksur Suth on 22/09/2009 05:30:20 Originally by: fuze
Originally by: voogru
The alliance apparently was involved with ISK selling and you supplied their ISK selling account with ISK.
So it appears CCP is absolutely correct that, you supplied a holding character with billions of ISK which then got RMT’ed.
Granted, you should not be held liable if someone sells ISK that you sent to them, but when there are multiple transactions with obscure reasons or no reasons at all you have to believe there is something fishy going on.
What alliance was this? Surely you would remember the alliance? Do you remember ANYTHING about a character you sent over two billion ISK too, for ‘mining rights’?
Give us the name of that alliance. NOW!
I don't think he's allowed to... I actually just read the ToS, if CCP told him that some bunch of people are in RMT, he'll just get another ban for trying to tell. Your actually not allowed to post private communications from CCP at all without their permission. They kinda ignore that with routine petitions and stuff I guess, but if he starts naming names of people who were banned for RMT, that kind of goes a bit into revealing a private matter. |
Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
|
Posted - 2009.09.22 05:36:00 - [ 53]
|
Blane Xero
Amarr
The Firestorm Cartel
|
Posted - 2009.09.22 05:37:00 - [ 54]
Originally by: Ranger 1
I think that insisting that multiple accounts logging on from your house that are engaged in the same type of suspicious activities are your siblings, and you have no knowledge of their activities, is stretching the gossamer thread of believability a bit past the breaking point. 
I never even suggested that. My only claim is that it is virtually impossible (Short of both accounts being paid by the same credit card) for CCP To tell who is and is not the same person. They cannot review all my accounts if they do not know which accounts are tied to whom. All of this is pointless though, cause they can just review the accounts anyway. But still, i would like to think they would handle the banning of a bad plaer better than blanket banning "Everyone who looks like one person". Personally i'm of the Opinion that this might be a case where CCP has overlooked something. Not definitely, but maybe. I know of many people who make deals with Corporations/Alliances to be left alone in a corner of their space. Not exactly Common business, but it does happen. (Think about it this way, 1b/month consistent income is better than a couple of hundred mill killmails and less than that loot before he would give up) |
Lotus Sutra
Caldari
Sutra Inc
|
Posted - 2009.09.22 05:40:00 - [ 55]
Originally by: Uronksur Suth
Edited by: Uronksur Suth on 22/09/2009 04:41:51
You know what, just to check that. I looked up Sprint's terms of service and checked.
Um. Your wrong.
Originally by: Sprint
Our Right To Suspend Or Terminate Services
We can, without notice, suspend or terminate any Service at any time for any reason:.....(g) breaching the Agreement, including our Policies;...
epic fail
Originally by: Lotus Sutra
You would be wrong. Do your research. The courts in the United States anyway, have already said that a character does have a real world value. I can't remember what game it was, WoW or Everquest or some similar game. The lawsuit was a few years ago. But the courts forced Sony or Blizzard or whoever it was to re-reimburse a player monetarily (or group, like I said it was a few years ago, and I don't remember all the details) for a players time and effort on a character that they wrongfully deleted permanently.
I will see if I can find the article in question that had the information in it and link it.
You'll understand if I'm skeptical until you find it. And look at what CCP has in their Terms of Service!
Originally by: CCP
We reserve the right to ban any user from the game without refund or compensation.
I found several articles actually, but none linking to the american lawsuit, just lawsuits in other countries. I remember hearing about this around 2001 when I was still playing Everquest, and had heard similiar things since. The 2001 lawsuit I DID see the article on but i'm buggered if I can find it now. The lawsuit may have been successful and gagged. Or failed. But either way, I have yet to be able to locate the USA case so for the time being I retract my statement as fact, and leave it out as for now unsubstantiated rumor. linkyRefers to the story about the Chinese case. |
Uronksur Suth |
Posted - 2009.09.22 05:43:00 - [ 56]
Edited by: Uronksur Suth on 22/09/2009 05:47:04 Originally by: Ranger 1
Originally by: Carlo Curiosus
Originally by: Ranger 1
Yes, there are a couple of "urban legend" stories of MMO companies being told they can not ban people, I have looked them up and read them before. Please do find them, and read them carefully. You will see that they either do not apply, or in fact that the final decision was the opposite of what the attention getting title of the story alludes to. It's called "sensationalism" and is done quiet often in the media.
BlackSnow seems to the most referenced.
Someone is also apparently suing Square-Enix for deleting their character (after 2 years of not playing FFXI...).
Thank you Carlo. Hopefully that puts a damper on our local conspiracy theorists.
That guy is an idiot. Sony makes it very clear that they will ocassionally delete inactive characters. Sony doesn't ALWAYS delete characters after 90 days. I was inactive for a YEAR and came back and my character was still there. That's just some dumb hack looking to make a few quick bucks off a frivolous class action law suit. The only thing I would agree with is that Sony's re-activation charges is a bit cheap, but its not like it isn't it isn't anything they should have known about when getting the game. God people are lazy. Would it KILL some people just to familiarize themselves with the standard clauses in a EULA? EDIT: Originally by: Lotus Sutra
But either way, I have yet to be able to locate the USA case so for the time being I retract my statement as fact, and leave it out as for now unsubstantiated rumor.
Well, I do appreciate your doing so. I don't doubt very few people could bring themselves to make such a retraction. Oh yeah and I remember reading about that Chinese case when it first happened. Mainly I remember just shaking my head in awe. |
Lotus Sutra
Caldari
Sutra Inc
|
Posted - 2009.09.22 05:45:00 - [ 57]
Edited by: Lotus Sutra on 22/09/2009 05:55:17Edited by: Lotus Sutra on 22/09/2009 05:53:33 Originally by: Uronksur Suth
Originally by: F15T0
IE they could not say "we can ban you whenever we want and deny you acsess to items with a defined value that are traded for real world currency"
So "blah blah the EULA says" is pointless anyway.
No, because you only get banned when YOU VIOLATE THE CONTRACT first. Don't you get it? No one gets randomly banned for no reason, which you claim happens without any basis. People at the VERY LEAST are accused of violating the contract, thereby forfeiting the rights you have under the contract. You do know that technically CCP is within their rights to sue everyone they ban for material damages due to breach of contract, right?
Not totally true. Remember that this is a game ran by people that are fallible and DO make mistakes now and then. Example: A Junior GM moved all the Highsec Capitals to lowsec because someone lied and said Chribba attacked them in his dreadnaught by falsifying a kill mail when the truth was, he tried to suicide gank Chribba and failed. A threadnaught and probably a well worded petition seeking elevation by Chribba got the Jr. GM's 'mistake' reversed. Mistakes do happen. We are after all, human (well, you are anyway, I am a super being capable of bending time and space with my over sized brain to make pretty girls get naked and let me touch them in naughty places .) Originally by: Ranger 1
I think that insisting that multiple accounts logging on from your house that are engaged in the same type of suspicious activities are your siblings, and you have no knowledge of their activities, is stretching the gossamer thread of believability a bit past the breaking point.
Not really. Here again, when I was in college me and a few buddies rented a house together. We all used the same high speed internet and played the same games for the most part. One of my friends got his character and account banned for running hacks. I had no clue he was doing that. Assuming I will know every little activity happening on a shared internet connection by the people I share it with, is assuming a lot. But yeah if ALL the characters from that IP was using hacks, it would look pretty bad for me to try and claim it wasn't me. |
Ghoest |
Posted - 2009.09.22 05:46:00 - [ 58]
OKs story is quite believable. |
Pesky LaRue
Brotherhood Of Fallen Angels
Etherium Cartel |
Posted - 2009.09.22 05:47:00 - [ 59]
|
Uronksur Suth |
Posted - 2009.09.22 05:52:00 - [ 60]
Originally by: Lotus Sutra
Originally by: Uronksur Suth
Originally by: F15T0
IE they could not say "we can ban you whenever we want and deny you acsess to items with a defined value that are traded for real world currency"
So "blah blah the EULA says" is pointless anyway.
No, because you only get banned when YOU VIOLATE THE CONTRACT first. Don't you get it? No one gets randomly banned for no reason, which you claim happens without any basis. People at the VERY LEAST are accused of violating the contract, thereby forfeiting the rights you have under the contract. You do know that technically CCP is within their rights to sue everyone they ban for material damages due to breach of contract, right?
Not totally true. Remember that this is a game ran by people that are fallible and DO make mistakes now and then. Example: A Junior GM moved all the Highsec Capitals to lowsec because someone lied and said Chribba attacked them in his dreadnaught by falsifying a kill mail when the truth was, he tried to suicide gank Chribba and failed.
A threadnaught and probably a well worded petition seeking elevation by Chribba got the Jr. GM's 'mistake' reversed. Mistakes do happen. We are after all, human (well, you are anyway, I am a super being capable of bending time and space with my over sized brain to make pretty girls get naked and let me touch them in naughty places .)
Well yes, but the thing is that there isn't any other oversight. It really is not ideal that CCP, one of the parties to a contract, is the same one that decides whether or not it was broken, but what can you do about that? And really, there isn't any motivation for them to ban people without real reason. They could probably lower their operating costs, and maybe increase their profits briefly by doing so, but then they would have a lot of angry customers, and less subscribers, and people screaming and filing complaints with the Better Business Bureau (or the Icelandic equivalent) |
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