| Author |
Topic |
Onnen Mentar
Murientor Tribe
|
Posted - 2009.09.22 15:18:00 - [ 31]
After rereading this chronicle and thinking things over I find a bit of a gap in my EVE backstory knowledge. So I have one question, relating to the following paragraph:  Quote:
During the great Minmatar rebellion, the Nefantars cooperated with the occupying Amarr forces because another tribe, the Starkmanir, were about to be wiped out of existence. And we took them in. The Nefantar leaders took in the last of the Starkmanir, hid them among our people in a marvelous web of deceit, and then allowed the whole Nefantar tribe to be taken in by the Amarr, Starkmanirs intact.
Why were the Starkmanir suddenly in danger of being wiped out? Wasn't the failed Starkmanir rebellion 200 years prior to the great rebellion? Probably I'm missing/overlooking some information here, if someone could provide it, that would be great. |
Ciaran Sarabelo
INT3GRAL |
Posted - 2009.09.22 16:08:00 - [ 32]
Edited by: Ciaran Sarabelo on 22/09/2009 16:18:02
As a Caldari, I wrestle with my own demons concerning the Gallente, and am constantly amazed that my own people aren't allied with the Minmatar since our own national stories are in some sense similar, i.e., our homeworlds occupied by another. The constant push to paint the Caldari as one of the "bad guys" is unfortunate, and is often done so by skimming over the fact that the Gallente conquered Caldari Prime and bombed it into a stone age, and would have wiped my people out, a la the Starkmanir, if we hadn't fled our homeworld en masse. The Chronicle here highlights how a good intention can go wrong. The narrator wishes to free his people from foreign Amarrian influence and rule, but his own good intentions have become self-serving. He does not see, or refuses to acknowledge, that the Amarrian Heir Ardishapur is doing his people a good service: as long as it comes from Amarrians it is unacceptable. As it so often happens-- and none exemplified more so than with my own people under Tibus Heth-- when the tables turn, the atrocities begin anew. Who are the "bad guys" in our galaxy? The Caldari for wishing to free our homeworld? The Minmatar for wishing to free their people from slavery? The Gallente for ruthlessly conquering their neighbor? The Amarr for conquering and enslaving theirs? Everyone will have a skewed view of who the bad guys are, depending on their point of view. The Gallente felt they were bringing freedom and democracy to Caldari Prime. The Amarr felt they were bringing the light of their true religion to the Minmatar. And so, here we are, thousands of years removed from our ancestors living on one small blue planet fighting amongst ourselves, yet still fighting amongst ourselves, but in the stars. |
Ian Sommers
Gallente
Mandalore Salvage And Exploration |
Posted - 2009.09.22 16:26:00 - [ 33]
|
Arnulf Ogunkoya
Minmatar
The Causality
Electus Matari |
Posted - 2009.09.22 19:39:00 - [ 34]
Originally by: Ealthor
I think you might be considering the narrator to be more reliable than he really is. It can quite easily be a rationalisation on the part of the narrator to paint himself/his tribe/his friends as the good guys all along (In this case good guys for him = "Good Minmatars"). After all he has some fairly skewed rationalisation of the "Badness" of the Amarr and Ardishapur.
Essentially he believes that it doesn't matter what the Amarr do, whether apparently benign, beneficial or aggressive, it will be bad and wrong simply because it is the Amarr doing it and he provides a rationalisation for this point of view (They're only doing it to subvert us/me!). It seems sensible to assume that he'd treat Minmatar similarly (anything True Minmatar does must be right, for some reason, because it is us doing it). So he makes up a cosey story about the Nefantars being tragic heroes.
Oh I don't think the narrator is reliable at all, fanatics rarely are the best observers. The stuff about the tribal leadership really being super secret rebels is straight from the book and the news items that came out around the start of FW. As you might recall the Ammatar governor called on the rest of the tribe to side with the Elder fleet and return to the Republic. Most odd considering the Mandate & the Republic had actually been at war in the fairly recent past. Abraxas is a fine writer but someone on the plot team seems to be putting in stuff because they think it's cool, and not stopping to figure out how it can make sense in the context of the wider setting. I believe thinking like that wrought havoc in the old World of Darkness setting so I was a tad concerned when CCP bought out White Wolf. When the novel came out with it's anime like hidden fleet (that nobody noticed the resources being syphoned off for) and refuge planets (that none of the PC or NPC pilots that roamed the Wildlands ever noticed) I felt that my worst fears where coming true. However, the Ammarian/Matari side of things made some sense compared to the terrorist that takes over the state (and nobody notices that he is one despite having a tatoo identifying him as a member of the Templis Dragonaurs [p149 of the novel]). |
Arnulf Ogunkoya
Minmatar
The Causality
Electus Matari |
Posted - 2009.09.22 19:46:00 - [ 35]
The stuff about the Nefantars being the old leaders of the tribes is straight from the original Ammatar chronicle. Quote:
The Ammatars are descendants of Minmatars that collaborated with the Amarrians during the latter occupation of the Minmatar worlds. When the Amarrians were thrown out during the Minmatar Rebellion their collaborators fled with them. The Amarrians helped their Minmatar allies to settle in a few systems not far from the newly formed Minmatar Republic. The Ammatars regard themselves as the true rulers of the Minmatars, mainly based around the fact that a fair proportion of the old Minmatar aristocracy, or tribal leaders, were among them. In this vein they named their domain San Matar, meaning ‘true home’.
I see that talks about them collaborating during the latter part of the occupation so it does tally with this chronicle to some extent. |
Alexeph Stoekai
Stoekai Corp
|
Posted - 2009.09.22 20:14:00 - [ 36]
Originally by: Onnen Mentar
After rereading this chronicle and thinking things over I find a bit of a gap in my EVE backstory knowledge. So I have one question, relating to the following paragraph:
Quote:
During the great Minmatar rebellion, the Nefantars cooperated with the occupying Amarr forces because another tribe, the Starkmanir, were about to be wiped out of existence. And we took them in. The Nefantar leaders took in the last of the Starkmanir, hid them among our people in a marvelous web of deceit, and then allowed the whole Nefantar tribe to be taken in by the Amarr, Starkmanirs intact.
Why were the Starkmanir suddenly in danger of being wiped out? Wasn't the failed Starkmanir rebellion 200 years prior to the great rebellion? Probably I'm missing/overlooking some information here, if someone could provide it, that would be great.
The protagonist doesn't know the correct history. |
Arnulf Ogunkoya
Minmatar
The Causality
Electus Matari |
Posted - 2009.09.22 20:21:00 - [ 37]
Originally by: Onnen Mentar
Why were the Starkmanir suddenly in danger of being wiped out? Wasn't the failed Starkmanir rebellion 200 years prior to the great rebellion? Probably I'm missing/overlooking some information here, if someone could provide it, that would be great.
There is a chronicle that tells the tale of the start of the Starkmanir uprising and why it was put down so visciously. It is called Khumaak.The timeline in the Eveopedia states that the Starkmanir revolt took place in 22947 and the great rebellion was in 23216. Also first contact between the Empire and the Matari is in 22355 and the invasion is in 22480. So the Matari where completely conquered for 736 years, with the uprising coming 269 years before the rebellion which establishes the Republic. Think of it as a Matari equivalent of the Easter Uprising in Ireland, or possibly Wolfe Tone's uprising of 1798. I think the idea is that the Ardishapaur family was systematically hunting down and killing any trace of the Starkmanir tribe becuase the rising started with the killing of an imperial Heir. The Nefantar underground, such as it was, found a last group of surviving Starkmanir slaves and hid them from the purge. |
Onnen Mentar
Murientor Tribe
|
Posted - 2009.09.23 00:30:00 - [ 38]
Originally by: Arnulf Ogunkoya
I think the idea is that the Ardishapaur family was systematically hunting down and killing any trace of the Starkmanir tribe becuase the rising started with the killing of an imperial Heir. The Nefantar underground, such as it was, found a last group of surviving Starkmanir slaves and hid them from the purge.
It seems that would be the only way to explain it, but I'd love to get some more official storyline on this matter because it currently looks very unconvincing. Why would their situation be suddenly so dire just before the great rebellion? It all raises tough questions... - How can an entire social layer/tribe suddenly be convinced to collaborate without reason? - If the collaboration happened simultaneously with hiding the last Starkmanir, doesn't it somehow look odd? - Why did they let themselves be evacuated/expelled during the great Minmatar Rebellion? - How do you suddenly discover/hide Starkmanir who have been persecuted for centuries? (And how do you hide them using freshly collaborated Minmatar aristocracy?) I guess it all comes down to one question though: - What exactly did Nefantar collaboration entail? Having an answer to the above question would go a long way to making it all more believable or at least more debatable (at the moment we know so little, we can hardly use good arguments). To me it seems that everyone should have known about the hidden Starkmanir. If noone knew and the collaboration was "genuine", then some fanatical types would have discovered the hiding. But, if everyone knew, then how come it never reached the Amarr and why didn't the Nefantar with their Starkmanir revolutionaries join the rebellion then? Anyway, this matters greatly to me as according to our storyline the Nefantar brutally butchered the Murientor after a local uprising shortly after the Starkmanir revolt. With the data we used to have before all the sudden twists, I had always assumed Nefantar collaboration was almost instant. Why? Because as already mostly the dominating/arrogant leading class/tribe they were easily lured with luxury and salvation, while the other tribes actually suffered. In other words: I assumed the (minority) Nefantar tribe made use of the Amarr invasion to establish complete dominance over the other tribes. Any invader would be stupid not to abuse the tribal structure of the minmatar. So events then happened in this order: 1 Nefantar collaborate and slowly start to rise through the Amarrian society 2 Starkmanir revolt (bloody Amarrian retaliation; Nefantar partly held responsible) 3 Murientor local uprising (bloody Nefantar retaliation to redeem their image) 4 Minmatar Rebellion With all last year's storyline shifts the order of events would be: 1 Starkmanir revolt 2 Nefantar collaboration 3 Minmatar Rebellion In short: This chronicle in combination with all of last year's events kinda ruins Murie's backstory and is on its own highly unconvincing. Of course, we can always theorycraft our way out of this, because in the end we do whatever we want in our little dream universe.  A shame the official backstory has to contain such enormous leaps of faith though.  Fortunately some good official stories can/could bridge the gaps. I hope it won't force a complete rewrite of our history though. Identity is important to Murie and being forced to change our 4 year old backstory because of the official backstory's unfounded twists and turns would really suck.  |
Lusulpher
Gallente
|
Posted - 2009.09.23 06:59:00 - [ 39]
Edited by: Lusulpher on 23/09/2009 07:07:23 Originally by: Blake Rathen
Awesome chron.
But I think people are drawing the wrong conclusion with, "there is no absolute right or wrong, good or bad". There is good and bad, but both exist in each of us.
Nice to hear a story of how the love one has for their own people can get twisted into actions that hurt them. Makes you stop to think about terrorism and how it comes about. Especially when the focus of justice is totally in the past, with no vision of hope for the future. 
All of this^ Wow, another one that hits home, as I was raised in a former British colony and a former French colony(they slaughtered most of the natives)...The last thing my ancestors' overlords did, was create a First world school system in a financially-bondaged Third World island nation. *The island that fought for independence longest, was the last to receive Independence and financial support. God bless the Queen, that *****.  * The first thing my ancestors did apparently was mimic the corrupt, useless governing bodies that had oppressed them for hundreds of years and they established a pseudo-Aristocracy on the Isles, the more islands you learn about the more rotten the system. I learned about all of this at the age of 9, the mind truly reels at the ignorance. As at the age of 21, and having been in 3 countries, I seem to be of a dwindling number of "global/social historians"(not by career). Nobody understands that a few years ago, some completely inhuman **** went on and it still goes on, just slightly out of view. And all the confusing policies and actions from then are rippling now, but everyone is obsessed with things that really don't matter. Things that are now. I lost my mother to the things that are now, and just like your protaganist, I feel that my own people are confused. And yet, I'm also tempted to let it go. And yet, I fear for my unborn children. They might become a part of The Lie. That rotten thing, slimy and offensive..Sometimes, I can smell it. " I learned to think and reason for myself. Besides, it was never any great challenge to see through their lies. Data isn't hard to come by. People just need to look for it." I was stunned you have such a grasp of this internal turmoil. How did you get to the core of this issue like that? Do you believe you can break a system from within, using it's own rules? If you can't beat it, and you can't join it, what would you do? It is true, the bitterness goes in all directions. |
Ven Elak |
Posted - 2009.09.23 09:33:00 - [ 40]
Good story.
The narrator correctly grasps that what he has entered into is a war of ideas. This is of course a matter of "religious" faith, in fact. The faith in this case of the essential core of "pure Minmatar"-ness versus an outside, alien identity wrapped in its own, more apparent religiosity.
The reaction of attacking the enemy's physical manifestations, rather than the idea at the core, is a classic error in insurgency/counter-insurgency, and is likely a play directly into the hands of Ardishapur--not that the narrator would realize this.
Regardless, the parallels of course to our own reality and the approaches that various factions have or are taking toward what are fundamentally faith-based issues of idea, are telling. In the end, you can only triumph ideologically by facing a hostile or poisonous idea head-on, with sunshine, not bombs.
--Ven |
Elrianmk2
Gallente |
Posted - 2009.09.23 10:24:00 - [ 41]
Very much enjoyed this chron, so much so it tempts me back into the FW, Curse you CCP why do you tempt my poor carebear soul so?
Pew pew, its good for you, and tbh, this chron highlights one of the fundimental things about Eve, whether it be at Empire, Alliance or corp level, its only good if its your guys doing it! (cept being podded, thats never good.) |
CCP Abraxas
 |
Posted - 2009.09.23 11:38:00 - [ 42]
Typos have been fixed. And I'm glad you guys liked the story.
Incidentally, this is the last chronicle before Fanfest. Those of you who are going, don't hesitate to say hi if you spot me in the halls! Far as I can tell I'm scheduled to be on a storyline panel, and to hold one special presentation on fiction writing. |
Casiella Truza
Ecliptic Rift
|
Posted - 2009.09.23 14:00:00 - [ 43]
Originally by: CCP Abraxas
Far as I can tell I'm scheduled to be on a storyline panel, and to hold one special presentation on fiction writing.
This makes me even sadder that events conspired against me so that I can't go this year. I'd love to hear more about the storyline and get some of my fundamental questions answered (like, "what can be done to emphasize the darker side of the Minmatar?" and "how about less deus ex machina, hmm?" ). |
Sasim Kathul
Amarr
Viziam
|
Posted - 2009.09.23 14:22:00 - [ 44]
Great chronicle!  |
Haxfar Portlaind |
Posted - 2009.09.24 14:38:00 - [ 45]
Am I the only who sense a bit Al-Quaida/Taliban thing over over the teller?
No offense!! |
Himtron |
Posted - 2009.09.24 21:59:00 - [ 46]
A really good Chronicle, we can learn a lot from it |
Katrina Bekers
Gallente
Fighters Squadron
|
Posted - 2009.09.25 15:35:00 - [ 47]
Very good chronicle. More down-to-earthish than recent ones by Abraxas. I enjoyed it, even with that bitter feeling of one REALLY misguided guy with too much detonating power in his hands...
At times you hate bad guys because they're not bad enough, and you can't help but realizing that you're hating them because they're doing good things. Which is borderline paranoid and straight wicked. |
Fenris Ulfur
Bio Material Inc
|
Posted - 2009.09.26 12:39:00 - [ 48]
Fantastic chronicle! Been waiting since the novel for a chron about the Ammatar Mandate.
But now I'm stuck wondering who "she" is? Something to do with the upcoming novel? |
Abrazzar |
Posted - 2009.09.26 14:06:00 - [ 49]
Originally by: Fenris Ulfur
Fantastic chronicle! Been waiting since the novel for a chron about the Ammatar Mandate.
But now I'm stuck wondering who "she" is? Something to do with the upcoming novel?
My guess is, the lady with the children in the chronicle picture is who "she" is and the place is the one they're about to blow up (including her and the kids). |
Pastor Pulpit
Wreckage Reclamation Enforcement Consortium
Gentlemen's Interstellar Nightclub |
Posted - 2009.09.29 16:33:00 - [ 50]
Edited by: Pastor Pulpit on 29/09/2009 22:14:24
Edited by: Pastor Pulpit on 29/09/2009 16:36:20
What do these Ammatar have to complain about anyway? Does not their cell have padding lest they hurt themselves? Do not they have libraries filled with the finest 'approved' literature? Museums filled with 'appropriately righteous' objects of art? Do not their theatres show the latest 'culturally progressive' holoreels? Is not their prison hung with the finest 'sensitively pious' tapestries to quell the drafty air? Do not their children have 'free' healthcare in the infirmaries?
When subduing the great ancient beasts of man's ancestral home, ancient zookeepers would bind the beast with the heaviest of shackles as an infant; after struggling for short periods and realizing there is no escape, the beast--plied with creature comforts, shelter and readily available food--would flail less and less until the binding can be reduced subtly over time, until the beast--full grown--could be held with the lightest of threads. For, you see, the beast's mind had by then been reduced to no hope, inkling, or fathomable need to escape and thus would not even test the binding further. The zookeeper had successfully shackled the beasts mind. Shades of grey, indeed. |
Arnulf Ogunkoya
Minmatar
The Causality
Electus Matari |
Posted - 2009.09.30 19:34:00 - [ 51]
Pastor, you do realise this is an out of character thread, right? |
Grishax |
Posted - 2009.10.01 12:37:00 - [ 52]
Edited by: Grishax on 01/10/2009 12:44:10
When reading this, I'm wondering what really pushes him into commiting the terroristic act.
Is it really neccesary to blow up a school to 'teach' the populace a lesson?
Or is it his over-inflated ego that has been pinched by 'her', and now he seeks retribution?
Notice a few lines earlier, where he identifies himself with 'the cause' in such a way, that 'The Cause' and himself are practicly one and the same. 'She' chose to leave him. Therefore, she performed the most unspeakable act, she went against 'The Cause'. Therefore, he has no choice but to punish her.
To me, this is not so much a story about 'the other side' of the conflict, but a picture of a twisted mind justifiyng a selfish act by putting it into the form of an act in favor of the 'Common Cause'.
I do not even think he's overly concerned about the other people he's going to hurt, he has not even mentioned them. Nowhere does he mention this act to be 'regrettable, but neccesary'. There's no compassion at all. He's going to blow up the school because she's in it, under the guise of it being a 'lesson' that needs to be learned by the populace. |
Misguided
Hope and Change
|
Posted - 2009.10.02 12:29:00 - [ 53]
Originally by: Katrina Bekers
...even with that bitter feeling of one REALLY misguided guy with too much detonating power in his hands...
Bitter? Me? :) Great chronicle. I too thought the speaker was the teacher until fairly late... nicely done. The devolution into petty revenge and personal power-seeking was a little stark, but I guess it has to be for a chron sized story. |
Amitious Turkey
Gallente
TarNec
|
Posted - 2009.10.04 04:01:00 - [ 54]
Reading the Chronicles always makes me depressed  |
Lusulpher
Gallente
|
Posted - 2009.10.04 09:06:00 - [ 55]
Originally by: Ven Elak
Good story.
The narrator correctly grasps that what he has entered into is a war of ideas. This is of course a matter of "religious" faith, in fact. The faith in this case of the essential core of "pure Minmatar"-ness versus an outside, alien identity wrapped in its own, more apparent religiosity.
The reaction of attacking the enemy's physical manifestations, rather than the idea at the core, is a classic error in insurgency/counter-insurgency, and is likely a play directly into the hands of Ardishapur--not that the narrator would realize this.
Regardless, the parallels of course to our own reality and the approaches that various factions have or are taking toward what are fundamentally faith-based issues of idea, are telling. In the end, you can only triumph ideologically by facing a hostile or poisonous idea head-on, with sunshine, not bombs.
--Ven
Also, struck me that this is how the US should be fighting the radical Muslim organizations...the core ideology is full of hypocrisies that Muslims and analysts point out, but soldiers are sent on mop out operations and now pulling out of infested areas, instead of saturating them with "Reconstruction Presence". As long as America is seen as an Empire instead of a Policing Force(not LAPD, more like Coast Guard), the VietCong scenario will continue. And the solution really is as simple as empowering the civilians who want modern change and not just some tribal pimp. As they kinda change sides on a variable.  (see President of Afghanistan and his ties to ****** production and ******'s ties to supplying Al-Queda/Taliban). Just stating this for the record, if this survives WW3.  |
Tirrus Rex
Minmatar
Infinite Dynamics
|
Posted - 2009.10.09 20:59:00 - [ 56]
Really powerful story. In my high school years, I spent a semester in a foreign country that had a certain population that had ideas very similar to those presented by the narrator of this story (and nope, not an Islamic county. :-) ). The tone presented here is dead on with several of the conversations I remember having back then. Thankfully, I was never around people while they were making bombs, but I knew that they would be sympathetic to such actions. This was a wonderfully crafted story that catches the motivations such rage and shame and pain that I saw then.
And I love how much was unstated. An outstanding job of showing, not telling, in writing. Well done.
David (aka Tirrus Rex) |
SrGeneral Mao |
Posted - 2009.10.15 01:06:00 - [ 57]
I'm a bit late to the discussion, but I guess people missed a possible meaning to this part of the story:
"Yes, including her. She chose to leave.
What?
I said she's gone.
Away. From us at least. Stop asking goddamn questions and hand me those goddamn detonators right now.
So there's nothing to it. The people have betrayed us, fallen asleep on the guard, turned away from us. The ones who truly loved them. And they need to be woken up.
May my people forgive me and see that what I did was necessary. Bring the rest of the equipment, please.
We'll start with the ones in our neighborhood.
Where she is."
I believe the 'she' is his wife/significant other. The 'truly love' when he says 'the ones who truly love them' seems indicative of a specific person, since the rest of the story only talks of his rebel days and the history behind them. Also, when he is asked again about 'her', he curses profusely, which indicates a personal relationship with 'her'.
It would make sense then, that he was content to talk about having a rebellion until Amarrian practices enticed his loved one away. It was then that he began putting words into action and decided to go ahead with the rebellion, and to specifically target the place that took 'her' away.
Or at least, that's what I see in it. |
Kronik2k |
Posted - 2009.10.20 10:32:00 - [ 58]
Btw i think hes going to vapourize the amarrians in the schools and hospitals not his own people, well thats the way I understood it :) only read it once :). |
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