| Author |
Topic |
Davinel Lulinvega |
Posted - 2009.09.17 16:04:00 - [ 91]
 Originally by: Crackzilla
yet somehow mixing armor/shield cap fleets is a good idea.
Completely different situations. First, dreads can't be repped in siege and can't fit reps. Secondly, 2/4 carriers have bonuses to both types. Third, those carriers have plenty of highs to fit as many reps as they want without having to worry about losing turrets. Fourth, the dps of a large dread fleet is so high that it doesn't really matter how many reps you have on someone, they're dead. |
Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
|
Posted - 2009.09.17 16:26:00 - [ 92]
Originally by: Davinel Lulinvega
First, dreads can't be repped in siege and can't fit reps.
Dreads can be repped out of siege. Of course this means that half the time if you're in a carrier you can't help that well because you've got the wrong type of remote reps in the highs. Originally by: Davinel Lulinvega
Secondly, 2/4 carriers have bonuses to both types.
Half the carriers can't effectively use the right type of remote rep for the tank. This would be like a mega trying to rr a shield tanked raven. Originally by: Davinel Lulinvega
Third, those carriers have plenty of highs to fit as many reps as they want without having to worry about losing turrets.
Carriers don't have an unlimited number of highs. So we get setups like 2x armor reps and 1x shield transfer. This gimps their ability to carry more neuts/smart bombs/utility mods. When they do rep either 1/3 or 2/3 reps are of the wrong kind for the target tank. Originally by: Davinel Lulinvega
Fourth, the dps of a large dread fleet is so high that it doesn't really matter how many reps you have on someone, they're dead.
The same argument can be made if enough hostile bs are on the field. |
xxxak
Caldari
Intergalactic Syndicate
Nulli Secunda |
Posted - 2009.09.17 16:39:00 - [ 93]
Originally by: Alsyth
Edited by: Alsyth on 17/09/2009 15:20:29
Edited by: Alsyth on 17/09/2009 15:17:25
Edited by: Alsyth on 17/09/2009 15:15:50
Edited by: Alsyth on 17/09/2009 15:14:31
Edited by: Alsyth on 17/09/2009 15:12:08
Originally by: xxxak
Is it POSSIBLE for you to READ? For the love of GOD?!
Min-Max principles, math, and logic all dictate that MIXED fleets will always be inferior to single-type (aka armor only fleets). Do you undertand that? Yes or No?
Any decently good alliance or FC will NEVER ALLOW mixed RR. The biggest reason is because its a "waste" (mathematically) to rep the shields of an armor tank because they have no shield resist hardeners. Likewise it is a "waste" to rep the armor of a shield tank because they have no armor resist hardeners.
UNDERSTAND NOW?
Well, I'm a PhD student in math, so you don't impress me at all. You are a bit short-sighted, your use of mathematics is wrong.
And you must have trouble reading : I suggested 50% full shield tanked gangs 50% full armor tanking gangs. Or 40% rr, 40% st AND 20% both tanks within the same fleet. And you obviously didn't understood that part.
Besides, as far as math is concerned, Min-Max only applied if everyone had perfect skills, if strategic possibilities of shield and armor fleets were exactly the same and so on.
That's not the case. A fleet of 100 Amarr/Gallente perfectly skilled and armor tanking, and 100 Minnies/Caladari not-so-well skilled but in armor-tanked Amarr BSs will probably lose to a 100 Amarr/Gallente perfectly skilled and armor tanking, and 100 Minnies/Caladari perfectly skilled and in their shield-tanked favorite BS.
A fleet is better when everyone is able to use its better abilities, provided it held some coherence. Forcing every shield tanker to only fly poorly-tanked and insta-primaried Scorpions, or poorly skilled armor tanking BSs is not a way to make a good fleet.
Besides, advantages of shield tank in maniability, speed, when signature radius doesn't really matter at BS size (except for rage torp ravens without painters...) are quite useful at close range encouters.
And I say it again : 100% Shield gangs should, according to the math you want to brag about, be as good as armor ones.
That's not the case, you admitted it by saying " non mixed fleet aka armor ones". That's the problem the useful posters want to discuss on this thread. Being the OP doesn't give you right to cut the interesting discussion and bring it back to something that seems useless for everyone but you 
You might have a phd in math, but my lord you fail in logic. Look at the *game we actually play* and the realities of that game. Most BS are armor tank, period. Most serious fleets are armor tank, period. RR BS fleets live and die based on their resist percentages and their ability to get an effective number of reps on a target before it pops (often seconds without a LOT of reps). Add in the confusion of battle. Finally, training a very decent armor tank tanks maybe... 2 weeks? And in any case, Ravens and Rokhs in fleets often ALREADY armor tank. The tanking skills are not really the issue. The bottom line is that for 1) simplicity and 2) maximizing the fleet's over all resist level and ability to get reps on target, FCs are going to pick ONE type of tank and request that everyone fit that tank type. Unless the ENTIRE game changes, that tank will be armor forever. In that light, adding a SINGLE armor tank ship to the Caldari line up doesnt seem that crazy, does it? |
Rumba Purring |
Posted - 2009.09.17 17:01:00 - [ 94]
I think OP has a valid point.
Problem 1. 2 groups being compared:
Group A: all armor-tanked RR BS's
Group B: mixed armor-tanked and shield tanked RR BS's
All things being equal, Group B is definitely disadvantaged in the amount of hit point repair that can be focused on the ship that's being primaried. Thus, on average, Group A will come ahead. This is an easy one to understand. I suppose if Group B splits up into 2 sub-fleets, and attack 2 primary targets in Group A, there may be a chance, but this is like having to master additional RL skill to compensate for the disadvantage imposed by the game.
Problem 2. 2 groups being compared:
Group A: all armor-tanked RR BS's
Group B: all shield-tanked RR BS's
Here, odds may be even. But, given demographics of PvP characters, it's safe to say that the probability of Group A formation is much better than that of Group B. So again, shield tankers are likely to encounter PvP encounter that's even-odds.
Here's a suggestion - cross train to fly armor-tanked BS. If you're skilled to fly torp-Raven, you can train for Typhoon in a couple of weeks. If you're skilled to fly Rokh, you can train for Mega or Hyperion in a couple of weeks.
I don't believe all races should be equal in all combat situations. It's actually more interesting that different races excel at different things. That way, figuring out which is optimal approach to a particular situation is left to players as an exercise. |
BiggestT
Caldari
Amarrian Retribution
|
Posted - 2009.09.17 18:29:00 - [ 95]
To xxak,
About the only one in this thread that is cluless is you.
You want to change the rokh's range bonus, get a clue nublett.
And enjoy trolling or w/e coz im going to sleep. |
Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
|
Posted - 2009.09.17 18:44:00 - [ 96]
Originally by: xxxak
In that light, adding a SINGLE armor tank ship to the Caldari line up doesnt seem that crazy, does it?
Only if Amarr gets a shield tanker added. Eventually things may change for caldari where rr shield tanking is preferred. Every race doesn't need every tank and every weapon type offered. |
Max Tux |
Posted - 2009.09.17 18:47:00 - [ 97]
the other problem which no1 seems to have noticed is yes, you may get *slightly* better resists with the raven - but whats the current FOTM, and what damage type does it deal.... what 2 resists are lowest on the raven.... now look at the Armor - what fires EXP? missiles ( only really on caldari ships with an exception or two) and some projectile ammo, which is not used often.
Everyone is saying that Amarr makes great RR so will be firing at the resistance hole anyway.
TP + Tackle + web can be fitted on support ships but only in 10+ gangs, for small gangs you'll still need point and tp/web.
As for not fitting into a RR armor gang - duh they are shield tankers, just because one thing is popular atm, doesn't mean every race should be able to do it. I'm just asking for some balence with LST vs LRAR so you can have a caldari / mini LST gang.
oh and don't forget all the armor fits can have slaves to add ehp - something crystals don't work for |
Sidus Isaacs
Gallente |
Posted - 2009.09.17 19:03:00 - [ 98]
Originally by: BiggestT
To xxak,
About the only one in this thread that is cluless is you.
You want to change the rokh's range bonus, get a clue nublett.
And enjoy trolling or w/e coz im going to sleep.
Tbh, judging from his other posts here on the forums, that is not new :). |
Etho Demerzel
Gallente
Holy Clan of the Cone
|
Posted - 2009.09.17 19:44:00 - [ 99]
Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 17/09/2009 19:45:10
To the OP: There are things called squadrons. It is perfectly reasonable to think about a mix of armor and shield RR in a fleet, as long as you don't mix them within squadrons and let each squadron RR itself.
Even within a fleet composed of mostly armor RR, a shield RR torp Raven squadron with possibly a few Scorpions WOULD be extremelly effective IF SHIELD TRANSFERS DIDN'T HAVE THESE RIDICULOUS CPU REQUIREMENTS, as it was said countless times in this thread. |
Ulstan |
Posted - 2009.09.17 20:11:00 - [ 100]
Edited by: Ulstan on 17/09/2009 20:15:24 Originally by: Gypsio III
LST II and LRAR II on a Megathron:
LRAR II: 7% of CPU, 3.4% of PG.
LST II: 22.4% of CPU, 1.0% of PG.
Why?
Shield RR should be easier to fit on BS than armour RR, because as most BS armour-tank, fewer BS would benefit from it as much as armour RR.
I suggest cutting the CPU requirements of shield transporters by a factor of three.
Good post. It's impossible to evaluate where shield RR falls compared to armor RR when sheild RR are impossible to fit because of outlandishly high CPU costs in the first place. Also, I think the minmatar shield tank isn't emphasized enough when a common perception seems to be that 3/4 of BS do armor tank, rather than shield. |
Lili Lu |
Posted - 2009.09.17 20:39:00 - [ 101]
Edited by: Lili Lu on 17/09/2009 20:41:53Did anyone read my post 72? My theory is there was a concern of monster tanks that could be created by huge local shield rep + some natural regen + lots of shield transfer buddies. It appears to me to be the reason for the cpu requirements on shield transfers. The fitting will rule out a local active tank to go with the shield transfer and necessitate that shield transfer ships go LSE and resists, like the pg requirements on rr armor dictate that they go plates and resists. As to the screaming about all rr BS must be armor, that's just wrong. You can have dedicated squads of remote shield ships within a fleet. You can even have the wing booster be a vulture running links. The limitation on the watch list to some extent limits who you can effectively rr anyway. No problem to fill your watch list with your shield transfer buddies. Lastly, I can't help but roll my eyes at what I perceive as another "Caldari can't pvp" whine.  Shield transfer affects Minmatar ships as well, and they do not have the wealth of cpu that Caldari ships get (for instance Mael cpu 640, Rokh cpu 780). The tools are there. FFS noone else gets the BS options that Caldari get. Suck it up, put on a fitting mod, and use the benefits you have. |
Ulstan |
Posted - 2009.09.17 20:42:00 - [ 102]
Edited by: Ulstan on 17/09/2009 20:45:06 Originally by: Lili Lu
Did anyone read my post 72? My theory is there was a concern of monster tanks that could be created by huge local shield rep + lots of shield transfer buddies. It appears to me to be the reason for the cpu requirements on shield transfers.
Your post probably didn't garner many replies because it is so obviously wrong. There is no such heavy fitting penalty to large remote armor repairers and they are just as effective as large remote shield transfers. LST's are no more effective than LRAR's, and thus shouldn't have crippingly higher fitting costs. If anything, Shield RR needs to be *better* than armor RR because of the built in bias towards armor RR since most BS tank armor, and also because the armor BS have more tanking slots than the shield BS. |
Lili Lu |
Posted - 2009.09.17 20:46:00 - [ 103]
Originally by: Ulstan
Your post probably didn't garner many replies because it is so obviously wrong.
There is no such heavy fitting penalty to large remote armor repairers and they are just as effective as large remote shield transfers.
LST's are no more effective than LRAR's, and thus shouldn't have crippingly higher fitting costs.
Do you fit armor tanking gunships? Do you know any that can skip around without pg fitting mods? Is it crippling to have to fit a cpu upgrade and no pg mods on a fleet shield tanker? Get off this whaaaaa CCP hates Caldari. In my estimation you get the best treatment. Noone else gets an ew BS. Noone else gets a missile BS and a gunship. Noone else has the most effective and most irritatingly crippling ew. |
Etho Demerzel
Gallente
Holy Clan of the Cone
|
Posted - 2009.09.17 20:46:00 - [ 104]
Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 17/09/2009 20:49:44 Originally by: Lili Lu
Edited by: Lili Lu on 17/09/2009 20:41:53
Did anyone read my post 72? My theory is there was a concern of monster tanks that could be created by huge local shield rep + some natural regen + lots of shield transfer buddies. It appears to me to be the reason for the cpu requirements on shield transfers. The fitting will rule out a local active tank to go with the shield transfer and necessitate that shield transfer ships go LSE and resists, like the pg requirements on rr armor dictate that they go plates and resists.
As to the screaming about all rr BS must be armor, that's just wrong. You can have dedicated squads of remote shield ships within a fleet. You can even have the wing booster be a vulture running links. The limitation on the watch list to some extent limits who you can effectively rr anyway. No problem to fill your watch list with your shield transfer buddies.
Lastly, I can't help but roll my eyes at what I perceive as another "Caldari can't pvp" whine. Shield transfer affects Minmatar ships as well, and they do not have the wealth of cpu that Caldari ships get (for instance Mael cpu 640, Rokh cpu 780). The tools are there. FFS noone else gets the BS options that Caldari get. Suck it up, put on a fitting mod, and use the benefits you have.
Local rep is irrelevant and ineficient in RR gangs. It eats your cap like crazy, brings huge fittting problems (even if LST had reasonable cpu requirements), diminushes your buffer (you need to let go of LSEs) AND adds a pitiful amount when compared to even 3-4 other battleships repairing you. So no, FIXING LSTs won't create monstrous shield tanks. Originally by: Lili Lu
Do you fit armor tanking gunships? Do you know any that can skip around without pg fitting mods? Is it crippling to have to fit a cpu upgrade and no pg mods on a fleet shield tanker? Get off this whaaaaa CCP hates Caldari.
In my estimation you get the best treatment. Noone else gets an ew BS. Noone else gets a missile BS and a gunship. Noone else has the most effective and most irritatingly crippling ew.
That is false. All RR armor battleships are able to fit at least one named LRAR and top tier guns without any fitting modules, you just have to have good skills and fit them intelligently. |
Lili Lu |
Posted - 2009.09.17 20:53:00 - [ 105]
Edited by: Lili Lu on 17/09/2009 20:56:08 Originally by: Etho Demerzel
Local rep is irrelevant and ineficient in RR gangs. It eats your cap like crazy, brings huge fittting problems (even if LST had reasonable cpu requirements), diminushes your buffer (you need to let go of LSEs) AND adds a pitiful amount when compared to even 3-4 other battleships repairing you.
So no, FIXING LSTs won't create monstrous shield tanks.
I'm not talking large fleet fights. Effectively if you are taking damage there you warp out or you are probably dead. RR is not going to hold you up if enough ships are shooting you. I'm talking about smaller engagements. In those smaller engagements your local rep is your buffer. Local shield boost takes effect right away. It also boosts way more than armor. In such small engagements you will probably not have time to cap out. In any case, talk to amarr ships about capping out or running out of cap charges. edit- LRAR, 7 top tier tech II guns, a mwd, and 1600 plates eat a lot of pg. I have awu5, i can't think of a ship that i don't have to use pg fitting mod or rig on. |
Karl Luckner
Caldari |
Posted - 2009.09.17 20:58:00 - [ 106]
Originally by: Lili Lu
Edited by: Lili Lu on 17/09/2009 20:41:53
Did anyone read my post 72? My theory is there was a concern of monster tanks that could be created by huge local shield rep + some natural regen + lots of shield transfer buddies. It appears to me to be the reason for the cpu requirements on shield transfers. The fitting will rule out a local active tank to go with the shield transfer and necessitate that shield transfer ships go LSE and resists, like the pg requirements on rr armor dictate that they go plates and resists.
As to the screaming about all rr BS must be armor, that's just wrong. You can have dedicated squads of remote shield ships within a fleet. You can even have the wing booster be a vulture running links. The limitation on the watch list to some extent limits who you can effectively rr anyway. No problem to fill your watch list with your shield transfer buddies.
Lastly, I can't help but roll my eyes at what I perceive as another "Caldari can't pvp" whine. Shield transfer affects Minmatar ships as well, and they do not have the wealth of cpu that Caldari ships get (for instance Mael cpu 640, Rokh cpu 780). The tools are there. FFS noone else gets the BS options that Caldari get. Suck it up, put on a fitting mod, and use the benefits you have.
Well, if you fit for RR you fit for buffer, not local rep. Minimizing your buffer for a bit of local rep just gets you killed. Adding to that, forget about fitting XL shieldbooster, SBA, cap injector, some hardeners and shield transfers. It is bad enough you can't have slave implants as a shield tanker, and your hardeners use cap. Long story short, train either for Phoon or Gallente if you want to participate as a formerly caldari specced player. |
Lili Lu |
Posted - 2009.09.17 21:12:00 - [ 107]
I used to fit fleet Abaddons with Tachs. I then had an opportunity to fit a Mael with a full rack of 1400. I was amazed how easy it was on the Mael. I also in the past fit phoons and tempests with shield transfers. I don't remember any crippling aspects to it. And, before someone moans about tachs being oversized take a closer look at mega beams. They have the shortest total range, optimal and falloff, compared to 1400 and 425. The only ships they practically work on for sniper fleet fit is the Apoc because of the optimal bonus. And they still suck in comparison to tachyons for fleet work.
I have not fit a Rokh for fleet. My alt has one for missions, but it seems blessed with cpu. If you need to fit a cpu upgrade on the ship to fit shield transfer and buffer then big deal. Just do it.
Anyway, i'm done with this thread. Too many people crying instead of adapting. CCP put the fitting reqs there for some reason. I tried to figure out why. Could the fitting be slightly reduced? Yes probably. Should they be massively reduced and/or remote armor pg reqs increased? No. Have fun crying about it. |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
|
Posted - 2009.09.17 21:25:00 - [ 108]
Edited by: Gypsio III on 17/09/2009 21:29:30
Lili, can I count on your support for increase the fitting the PG requirements of LRAR IIs to 4300 MW? Since you're quite happy fitting a copro or two on your Megas and Typhoons, I can only assume you'd be happy to fit RCU IIs as well. |
Etho Demerzel
Gallente
Holy Clan of the Cone
|
Posted - 2009.09.17 21:37:00 - [ 109]
Originally by: Lili Lu
I'm not talking large fleet fights. Effectively if you are taking damage there you warp out or you are probably dead. RR is not going to hold you up if enough ships are shooting you. I'm talking about smaller engagements.
In those smaller engagements your local rep is your buffer. Local shield boost takes effect right away. It also boosts way more than armor. In such small engagements you will probably not have time to cap out. In any case, talk to amarr ships about capping out or running out of cap charges.
My example consists in 4-5 battleships. That is what I would call "small engagement", VERY small actually by today's standards. Local rep only is significant for a gang of 3 battleships or less, which can't really be called a RR gang, and even so it won`t become a monstrous tank, it will only add the equivalent of ONE additional battleship repairing you. Quote:
edit- LRAR, 7 top tier tech II guns, a mwd, and 1600 plates eat a lot of pg. I have awu5, i can't think of a ship that i don't have to use pg fitting mod or rig on.
Sorry but it seems like you don't know how to fit. [Armageddon, RR] 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Adaptive Nano Plating II Adaptive Nano Plating II Damage Control II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II 100MN MicroWarpdrive II Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800 Conjunctive Radar ECCM Scanning Array I Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L Large 'Arup' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I 104K EHP, 681 of TURRET dps @45km with scorch, 855 of turret dps @15km with ANMF. Drone damage not acounted. Notice that I even used a 100MN MWD II instead of a Quad Lift(which uses more PG), and used the Meta 3 remote rep (which uses more cpu than the meta 4 but is a hell of a lot cheaper) If you prefer you can take one HS II and put another ANP II in its place for 119 EHP and 606 dps with Scorch or 760 dps with ANMF. That allows you to fit about anything you may wish in the place of the ECCM module, namely a disruptor, sensor booster or whatever your strategy demands you to bring. |
Aniel Zaar
Gallente
BIG
Majesta Empire |
Posted - 2009.09.17 22:22:00 - [ 110]
Originally by: BiggestT
The reason shield tanks (active) are "superior" in terms of dps tanked is because of high cap use, fitting req's and the loss of those valuable mids (yes we get free lows slots, but most armour tankers can still get 3 damage mods as well, we almost always have to use them for fitting as well). Add the over abundance of energy neut warfare means shield tanks aren't what you claim.
So no, shield tanking is not superior locally, so why is remore armour rep superior to shield transporting?
Oh and ur arazu argument fails, a falcon doesn't get to point form 40km so stfu, you're talking about totally different concepts (whereas rr-ing and repping are the one concept).
I find it hilarious that all these gallente toons keep trying to say "NO U" as well.
Thanks for making me laugh. Passive shield tanking tanks most dps on local basis, and is more neut-resistant then any other form of local tank. It is, in fact, superior to local armor tanking. I'm sorry if that's news for you. My Arazu argument is right on the money, but you don't seem to be able to see past your ignorance. If you even read my post, you would know that I actually pointed out that Arazu has a role as a long range point, which falcon does not. You fail for not reading my whole post. That example was to show that Arazu can't do things falcon can, but has other trade-offs. Same with your shield tank. You ignorance is either a bad trolling attempt, or just that, ignorance. |
James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction |
Posted - 2009.09.17 22:35:00 - [ 111]
Edited by: James Lyrus on 17/09/2009 22:37:06 Originally by: xxxak
Originally by: Alsyth
Edited by: Alsyth on 17/09/2009 14:53:38
Edited by: Alsyth on 17/09/2009 14:50:28
to xxxak :
You miss the point. Caldari aren't going to have good armor tanking ships. Neither would Amarr BSs become good shield tankers if a fleet commander ask its members to shield tank only.
Shield transfer is broken. Caldari are fine.
And it's broken because of fitting requirements and less BSs able to do it well. And because of this f*cking EM hole when right now half of fleet BSs are Amarr one. And less resistance overall : compensate with passive regen usually, but not in fleet battles when you die this fast...
I'm waiting for a buff to shield transfer and to Artillery to see a full Minnie (with some Caldari) shield-tanked (with EM rigs ?) fleet beat a rr fleet with its explosive damages :)
Originally by: xxxak
Shield RR fitting requirements are NOT the issue when 99% of 0.0 fleets are still going to be VERY PREDOMINANTLY armor RR.
Well, if shield RR weren't the issue, you would have 50% armor and 50% shield fleets. Or 40% RR 40% ST 20% mixed.
Is it POSSIBLE for you to READ? For the love of GOD?!
Min-Max principles, math, and logic all dictate that MIXED fleets will always be inferior to single-type (aka armor only fleets). Do you undertand that? Yes or No?
Any decently good alliance or FC will NEVER ALLOW mixed RR. The biggest reason is because its a "waste" (mathematically) to rep the shields of an armor tank because they have no shield resist hardeners. Likewise it is a "waste" to rep the armor of a shield tank because they have no armor resist hardeners.
UNDERSTAND NOW?
You've missed the point. You're quite correct that mixing your fleets is suboptimal. But that's not a reason why shield based RR shouldn't be viable - sure you'd be looking at Rokhs, Ravens, Maelstroms and Tempests, instead of 'Geddons, Megathrons, Abaddons, Typhoons. In neither case do you _need_ to mix your fleet. It's just right now, a shield RR gang is basically a non starter in the first place. Ironically, it might _almost_ be viable to shield RR on cruiser/BC sized ships... if it weren't for the cap getting eaten alive. Originally by: Crackzilla
yet somehow mixing armor/shield cap fleets is a good idea.
Well, both niddy and thanatos can shield tank pretty well, and do shield repping too. So you could quite easily kick out the Archons, and go vanilla shield RR gangs. |
Tom Peeping |
Posted - 2009.09.17 23:56:00 - [ 112]
Originally by: xxxak
Edited by: xxxak on 17/09/2009 14:41:33
Edited by: xxxak on 17/09/2009 14:39:00
Edited by: xxxak on 16/09/2009 20:39:42
Lots of wall of text
Do ANY of you understand MIN-MAX? ANY decent FC will and SHOULD require a 100% armor rep fleet. It is important that ALL ships in a fleet have max armor resists to benefit from armor reps applied. Furthermore, it is important that ALL ships in a fleet have armor reps to maximize number of potential reps on target within the critical first few seconds.
In other words, SPLIT armor and shield gangs are NOT VIABLE against an opponent that can field FULL armor gangs. Thus, any competent FC and Alliance will still demand/request/require that everyone train for armor rep ONLY -- EVEN IF SHIELD RR requirements go down.
Mix and Match shield and armor RR is NOT a solution. And.. neither is an all Raven/all Rohk gang.
More wall of text
While I agree that mixed is usually going to lose to a comparable coherent organized fleet, I fail to see why you completely ignore the fleet Shield RR gangs that happen. Honestly, shield rep, both remote and local, is so much more effective already than armor RR, that it's almost unbalanced even with the fitting requirements CCP placed. Why do you think traditionally armor battlecruisers such as the harb or the brutix get seen with shield fits... they aren't lol fits... once you get them into a gang bonus situation where the rep is going to be shield, it's far better to fly one of those fits than to go it alone with a buffer or local rep. Feel free to EFT it and prove it to yourself. Don't bother asking me to do your legwork for you. Please note OP... yes, I understand you're talking alliance pvp... I fly in alliance level fleets that mandate shield from time to time. One last question... Why do you feel that caldari should be exempt from the challenge of fitting into a RR armor gang, but the armor races should still have the challenge of trying to fit into the shield rep gangs that do exist, even if your personal alliance experience doesnt use it much? It's not like theres ANY amarr ship that does it really well... just like your complaint that there's not really any caldari ship that does armor really well. But hey! I'm sure CCP should listen to your demand that your pet race get buffed in ways that alter game balance.. I think that's a great idea. I'm sure that anyone who disagrees is mentally challenged just as you've said. |
Rodamus Zero
Gallente
Clans of the Sanctums
Quantum Decadence |
Posted - 2009.09.18 00:38:00 - [ 113]
If this thread is really about Alliance PVP and fleet battles with the combination of Shield/Armor tanked ships and their RR counterparts...
Wait... no... your on about BSs... just BSs... and that in order to fight, they all need to armor tank to be, well, successful...
In all the times I have FCed Ive NEVER put out the call to JUST bring a certian tank, certain ship, certain role, certain platform.
It seems your post is more of a referal towards FCs NEEDING to have ALL BSs armor tanked, regardless of race and that the WHOLE fleet consists of JUST armor tanking BSs jsut for your convenience.
The best (and most decent) FCs Ive seen and heard from are those that find themselves in charge of a fleet, find out what they are in command of and then on the fly, figure out what to do with it.
Youve got a Falcon... well ****, you know thats dead off the bat, as an FC you laugh at the pilot under your breath and hope "haha" he doesnt get primaried.
Youve got a armor tanking Raven... well, by your own words, you say that Ravens and Caldari ships in general are "auto-primary" so regardless if its shield or armor tanked, its gonna die.
So which is it? FCs needing an armor tanking capable ship for this so called "mandatory fleet", the seriousness of alliance pvp? or the fact you need to vent something on the forums about alliance warfare that you should deal with internally on your own first and set a benchmark, a milestone, an example to the rest of Eve to show this so called "mandatory fleet for 0.0 alliance"?
Should anything be done about a single race not being able to fit into your "mandatory fleet" of RR armor BSs?
Simple answer...
No
Adapt or Die (and Emo Rage Vent on the forums saying "I NEED THIS TO WIN!")
Simple answer, simple choice. |
Qolthus
ldiocracy |
Posted - 2009.09.18 01:07:00 - [ 114]
Personally I see Caladari ships as more than capable one on one against the same class from any other race, just fit the damn things right. As for LST or any ST for that matter using to much CPU, I agree to a point but at the end of the day even with all level 5's you run out of PG before CPU when fitting an RSR Raven... and low and behold I have free low slots, put some fitting mods in there, problem solved... hmmm my ship is cap stable with boosters in it... why cant my RR phoon do that ?
The mechanics work just fine for me, seems to be that the OP just cant understand them overly well... |
xxxak
Caldari
Intergalactic Syndicate
Nulli Secunda |
Posted - 2009.09.18 01:20:00 - [ 115]
One last question then:
Is it possible for me to save face by claiming that this was a troll thread?
Best,
-xxxak |
AstroPhobic
Minmatar
Holding Corp |
Posted - 2009.09.18 01:43:00 - [ 116]
Originally by: xxxak
One last question then:
Is it possible for me to save face by claiming that this was a troll thread?
Best,
-xxxak
No, given your terrible post history, you could not pull that off. Plus, it's against forum rules. |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
|
Posted - 2009.09.18 01:53:00 - [ 117]
I didn't read your post tbh, I just wanted to rant about shield RR CPU requirements. |
Captain Pompous
Is Right Even When He's Wrong So Deal With It |
Posted - 2009.09.18 05:53:00 - [ 118]
Originally by: xxxak
One last question then:
Is it possible for me to save face by claiming that this was a troll thread?
Best,
-xxxak
His name was Joe Phoenix (of S&M) |
BiggestT
Caldari
Amarrian Retribution
|
Posted - 2009.09.18 06:07:00 - [ 119]
Originally by: Gypsio III
I didn't read your post tbh, I just wanted to rant about shield RR CPU requirements.
Heh, (constructive) derail ftw |
Hurtado Soneka
Caldari
Vindicare Temple |
Posted - 2009.09.18 08:56:00 - [ 120]
Caldari should not be a pvp race? lol? are you high?
the problem is this, armour RR is overpowered, it needs to be nerfed in line with shield RR, or vice versa. |
|
All Channels
Ships and Modules
