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Gramtar
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.09.16 06:39:00 - [211]
 

Interesting concepts for supercapitals. What remains to be seen is what the role of dreads and carriers are vis a vis the new sov claiming device/thingy/whatever we shoot. After all, capital killers are not much use if there are no capitals around to kill. Some things to remember:

1) We use dreads today to siege towers and shoot other capitals
2) Most capital fights occur when a POS is exiting reinforced mode

Therefore, whatever the new thing is we'll be shooting at gates to claim sov:

1) Needs a reinforced mode to give defenders an opportunity to defend it at a later date, and both sides the time needed to prepare their players to be somewhere at a specific time. If you can outright kill the sov-claiming thing, why would anyone ever engage outside of their own prime time? Because they want "good fights"?

2) Since everything else in a system - cyno jammers and beacons, jump bridges, outpost/station access, and CSAA operation - is all dependent on sovereignty, all those other things will be a secondary target to an attacker. Serious attackers will go directly after the sov claiming device/tower/whatever it is. If this doesn't have a lot of HP - by a lot I mean something like 3-5x Large tower shield HP - then people will just shoot them with subcaps.

Now, you could radically change the role of the dread (by removing tracking penalties and improving scan res) to make it a subcap killer, in the same way the Titan is becoming a cap killer. However, that seems to make the game more "dumb" to me. It would simply become a matter of whoever brought the biggest guns to the fight winning - not very fun or challenging.

So, to help me appreciate these new capital ship killers, I need to understand under what circumstances there's going to be capital ships to kill. What is the role of the dread? Today while sieged, it does 10x the dps of a T2 gank BS against a large tower. We use them because we typically have to shoot several such towers in one go. Sometimes a lot more than several. If a system only had 1 or 2 large POS, we would probably just use BS and not put a 1.8 billion isk ship at risk.

What is the role of the dread in Dominion? I ask this because, like the last time POS and sov was revamped, one of the goals I'm hearing about is to "make small gangs relevant". As we know, unless CCP was referring to afk station services shooting for 12 hours, that goal was never realized. For me, when I hear that same goal echoed, I think - if a small gang can take or disrupt sovereignty, what role does the Dread still have?

When it comes down to it, the two ideas are completely at odds. Dreads - expensive, immobile, set pieces doing large amounts of damage to solo stationary targets - and small gangs running around trying to accomplish...something. I don't see how the two can live together.

My hope is EVE doesn't become solely a timezone war - your enemy shoots your crap in his primetime and you shoot his in your primetime and everything grinds along until one side takes a day off and there's a winner until it starts all over again.

Vir Hellnamin
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2009.09.16 06:43:00 - [212]
 

Edited by: Vir Hellnamin on 16/09/2009 07:31:15
Edited by: Vir Hellnamin on 16/09/2009 06:43:18
So instead of fixing docking-games Moros by changing the docking-timers, go for brute force again.

Leaves just every carrier to do same thing... WTF. (reprocess Moros, build Thana, go back camping)

Wouldn't docking-timer of "per station larger than current one" worked? Would have made sure that Moros will not make thru the timer with it's non-sieged tank+buffer; would have cleared the Morons in Moros camping station since the risk-vs-rewards goes all up-side-down, but wouldn't have ****ed up in system hauling...

Didn't fix the docking games, only made the Rev even more "must". (Nice job, awesome work men.)

AbudSeab
Posted - 2009.09.16 07:02:00 - [213]
 

Originally by: Gramtar

if a small gang can take or disrupt sovereignty, what role does the Dread still have?



Imho, I think the revamp for small gangs has nothing to do with sov itself or its structures. But with the need for more people working to make money (cause of moonmining nerf) will be a large abundance of target for small gangs, and with a lot of small gangs entering space all day long a defense force need to be active too. This defense force will not be made up of dread or cap, but prob also small/medium gangs patrolling area.

Alex Harumichi
Gallente
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2009.09.16 07:15:00 - [214]
 

Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 16/09/2009 07:17:41
Originally by: Korinn
Make moros drone bonus apply only in siege, but make siege double drone control range and sentry optimal range.

Bouncers to 120km? Yes please.


I like this. Make it so.

The points made previously be various people are valid: post-nerf, the Moros is inferior to the Revelation in every way. It needs some buff to compensate, and the above idea sounds good to me.

(the Revelation needing a small nerf is another possible issue)

Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
Posted - 2009.09.16 07:17:00 - [215]
 

Originally by: Sybilla Prior
Won't fighter-bombers make stealth bombers kind of useless?


Not really. I'd like to see a supercarrioer cov ops cloak and sneak up on someone :P

Xthril Ranger
hirr
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.09.16 07:18:00 - [216]
 

Now we got 2 months of complete stop in mothership sales. You'r eagerness to tell have shafted all ms producers.

Why remove features from the mothership instead of adding them? I have been using up to 6 gang links on my nyx when I was in fleet booster role. I think that was a decent role for a supercap and I really do not understand why it should be removed.

I was hoping this patch would be the big day for motherships, but I have never been hit so hard by the nerf bat. My ship lost its build value, the role I have been giving it and it's name.

Lord Timelord
GETCO
Waterboard
Posted - 2009.09.16 07:18:00 - [217]
 

So... You've decided to make a ton of changes eh CCP? Might I add some tweaks to your idea's:

Moros: If you remove the drone damage bouns while the ship is not in siege mode, could you please adjust the range of the blasters so they can hit a POS easily when in siege?

It seems that the real reason most Moros pilots use the Railguns is because the Blasters don't have enough effective range against Large Towers.

Could you also check on the damage output to make sure it's in line with the other dreads? I believe this is related to the above tbh. Since the blasters dont' have the range, you are forced to used the lower damage mod railguns. Fix the blasters range so they can be used instead of the railguns!

ALL Caps and Supercaps: Could you also allow ALL CAPS AND SUPERRCAPS the ability to scoop drones/etc from a further distance (best guess here would be somewhere between 5km-10km range)? It's a real PITA when you get bumped a bit and can't scoop them up.

While you're at it... Fighters STILL scoop very slow! They always have scooped slow... stuttering the client with each Fighter Scoop. It doesn't lag when launching them, but it ALWAYS hangs for a second when scooping. FIX IT!

Nyx: If you remove the ability for a SuperCarrier (Mothership) to use a Triage Module, I'd reccommend enabling them to repair at the same rate of an active triage module (and be possible to fit it to be cap stable with a decent tank).

So a Nyx with two capital reppers would repair at the same rate as a Triaged Thanatos with dual reppers, only it doesn't have to be bothered any more with the Triage Module and carrying stront! Wink

That would go a LONG way to making the ships more survivable, and they would still be able to use Drones/Fighters/Fighter Bombers as well, so they would have tougher defenses. That would be a huge relief to the players that managed to obtain such an incredibely expensive ship hull.

Allow Motherships the ability to repair their drones while inside their bays. A long time ago drones were completely healed (Structure, Armor, and Shields) when scooped. This was changed to Structure and Armor were not repaired, and Shields Repaired over time. Change it so Structure, Armor, AND Shields are repaired over time.

All SuperCaps:

How about giving Motherships (and possibily Carriers as well) the ability to repair all three HP Bars to drones/fighters over time? It would be logical that a SuperCarrier (Mothership) would have greater crew resources/equipment for fixing up Drones/Fighters when docked.

A LOT of us have asked for it since they came out. Give Motherships (SuperCarriers) and Titans the ability to DOCK! When Outposts were first going to be introduced into the game, a lot of people made the assumption that they would be able to dock at them (due to them being player built).

Would it be possible to code the game to allow them to either Dock at an Outpost, or an Outpost add-on? Or Perhaps a totally new "Player Augmented Drydock" (forever known and patented here as a "PADô"?

Zeveron
Exiled Gathering
HELL4S
Posted - 2009.09.16 07:21:00 - [218]
 

Edited by: Zeveron on 16/09/2009 07:33:36
I dont have any problems with the removal of the DD, but there are atleast 2 problems with the leviathan which make that ship less usefull than the other titan class ships.

1. The shield bonus isnt instant
2. Crystal set is not working with capital ships

Since all the other titan bonuses are instant, are we gona see a change here?
Since slave set is working on armor tanked ships are we gona see a change with crystal sets?
EDIT: What about locking speed? If I need 5 mins to fire and 2 mins to lock even a capital, I dont think its gona work. Or should I fit sensor boosters to my midslots where I usualy fit my tank, which is more needed than b4?

Both changes are vital after the changes you made on how the leviathan works

Sebin
Merciless.
Posted - 2009.09.16 07:25:00 - [219]
 

Edited by: Sebin on 16/09/2009 10:05:34
Give the Moros' drones all the bonuses (including their own reppers) since they are in siege mode themselves, thanks.

Alex Harumichi
Gallente
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2009.09.16 07:26:00 - [220]
 

Originally by: Lord Timelord
So... You've decided to make a ton of changes eh CCP? Might I add some tweaks to your idea's:

Moros: If you remove the drone damage bouns while the ship is not in siege mode, could you please adjust the range of the blasters so they can hit a POS easily when in siege?

It seems that the real reason most Moros pilots use the Railguns is because the Blasters don't have enough effective range against Large Towers.



Agreed. I don't fly the Moros myself, but pilots who do all tell me that blasters are often useless on it... which is a major drawback, removing the close-gank role in practice. Fix capital blasters, and the Moros pilots should be happy again. Maybe.

Xthril Ranger
hirr
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.09.16 07:31:00 - [221]
 

Originally by: Alex Harumichi
Originally by: Lord Timelord
So... You've decided to make a ton of changes eh CCP? Might I add some tweaks to your idea's:

Moros: If you remove the drone damage bouns while the ship is not in siege mode, could you please adjust the range of the blasters so they can hit a POS easily when in siege?

It seems that the real reason most Moros pilots use the Railguns is because the Blasters don't have enough effective range against Large Towers.



Agreed. I don't fly the Moros myself, but pilots who do all tell me that blasters are often useless on it... which is a major drawback, removing the close-gank role in practice. Fix capital blasters, and the Moros pilots should be happy again. Maybe.


noone is using short range capital weapons except phoenixes that do not have long range weapons.

Lusulpher
Gallente
Posted - 2009.09.16 07:38:00 - [222]
 

Just saw the Capital changes for Dominion...wow...bad.

1)Carriers need FBombers too. For obvious reasons. All other pre-Dom rules apply. :Lol: Fbombs.

2)The Hel bonus change is awful. Pretty sure that's what made them unique. More HP is needed on Moms. 2-5x dread, base.

3) Titan base HP better be 15x dread HP and up. And it should have Triage access with lingering penalties to offensive abilities while in that mode. If they can't fight back, option to make them near-immortal, so that the owners have more time for a plan and support formation.

Less will be killed, but less will be stockpiled. And the death of them will actually mean something. Forces Titan pilot to crosstrain also.

4)DDs should be Tactical environment effects like other players suggested. Dps is not the answer when 2 large fleets decide to meet. If you have the option to ECM a sniperfleet like the MoM, with either ECM or DD, this WILL FORCE BLOBS APART(tactically) and the Titan pilot will have to target instead of driveby. Titans will not always fit dps DD, so it can also bluff out the first engagement...Fear upon sight of a Titan, each time.
Then toss in tac-enviro weaponry for the single/multiple-locked targetting DD types, and you have true warfare. Titan the new Falcon?

Plus I will miss our trailers with the Ominae going off. Wtf is wrong with you?Confused

5) Gang mods on Titans get an insane boost, but completely gimp the Titans fitting of Offensive weapons. And anchoring a Titan like a POS/Flag when your first claim gets vaporised is still an option Sov gamers want. Nasty penalties apply.
Insane bonus to hardpoint/launcher fittings already proposed in other thread.

6) You are making an ORE Supercapital? That's the only thing that will replace the MoMs 5000-man limit clonebays and lame no-parking for your 20bil ship enjoyment of EVE. It better be able to Jump support ships in and have a MASSIVE SHIP Hangar(30 cruisers+). I'm talking godly. The MoMs never delivered and you know it.

I'm thinking Orca-> Rorq-> SuperRorq(Narwhal?).

And the manhours to draw up 4 racial Superc...Motherships, terrible move.Rolling Eyes

7) Jeez, cynos are still Tactical...and Dreads still carry anti-support drones...don't expect blobs/hotdrops to be reduced.

Moros change EPICWIN. Still gonna train it up. Those HICs/tacklers stand no chance anyway.Cool Or maybe try for Fbomb launcher.

Soleil Fournier
StarFleet Enterprises
Systematic-Chaos
Posted - 2009.09.16 07:38:00 - [223]
 

The docking situation with supercaps does need to be addressed.

Other than the "They're too huge to dock" theory, what are the reasonings behind making a supercap pilot stuck in their ship? I'd like to note that you can store moms/titans in pos bays that are significantly smaller in size than stations (But given the problems with POS and the ease at which a stored supercap can be stolen by a spy, or the pos blowd up, etc, this isn't an option).

Considering that supercaps can only be used at certain times (see: big fleets) and thus your alliance will most likely only be at war to be used, what about the times that your alliance isn't at war? This could be for long periods, especially if your alliance has all the space it wants and no one wants to attack them. The pilot is then worthless sitting in a POS shield. This is unfun.

I really think that supercaps need the ability to dock. There's no balance issues from allowing supercaps to dock. The only benefit it provides is allowing that toon to do other things in the game during times that they won't be able to use their ship otherwise. I think it's reasonable.

Edmund Khan
Destructive Influence
IT Alliance
Posted - 2009.09.16 07:40:00 - [224]
 

Edited by: Edmund Khan on 16/09/2009 07:44:01
I like the MS changes.

But please, make supercapitals imune to normal interdictor bubbles. There is no way you can control or fight those from a supercapital - you're death meat.

We have HIC with focused scripts now, to hold down supercaps. And mobile anchored bubbles. Thats enough and supercaps can fight those and maybe have a chance of getting away.
And a little effort should be required to hold down supercaps, not only a 20 milion frigate bubble spam...

Or at least give us some capital sized smartbombs with 12km range a bit more damage to fight dictor bubbles.

Vaedian GER
Excidium.
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2009.09.16 07:47:00 - [225]
 

The Moros and especially the Titan changes are total win, but the Mothership nerf is pointless. You are really reducing them to highly overpriced carriers now, the bombers won't help.

Also, you boost the Triage mode by making it less risky but TAKE it away from the MS?

Why no Bombers on Carriers? Nobody will pay 15b ISK just to launch those things while 2-3 Carriers for 3b can do the same Damage.

Whats your problem with the Clone Vat Bay? It's one of the reasons for smaller corps/alliances to get MS at all!


So either reduce the Supercarriers to a super price, arround 5-6 billion ISK, or boost them hard to make them worth their price!

The Kan
Gallente
The Circle
SOLAR WING
Posted - 2009.09.16 07:50:00 - [226]
 

CCP im f***ing ****ed with you.

I been flying this coffin for more than 2 years now.
2 freaking years.

you telling me now that, triage is gone? clone vat is gone? the gang warfare is gone?

who is going to reimburse my wasted skill time on those?
and why on hell do i want to keep 2 more years log'ed off in a damn ship ? to jump into a dread blob? you nuts?

wasted char, wasted money wasted time wasted isk

it's how i feel about this changes, and your misely ehp buf is not close to enough to compensate not even a scratch.

damn it

jeffb
GoonFleet
Posted - 2009.09.16 07:51:00 - [227]
 

Originally by: Lusulpher
Sov gamers
You're an idiot.

Jackie Fisher
Syrkos Technologies
Joint Venture Conglomerate
Posted - 2009.09.16 08:02:00 - [228]
 

Originally by: CCP Abathur
... Dreadnaughts...
... Dreadnaughts...
... Dreadnaughts...


Will CCP be buffing their spell checkers so the get ship names correct in future blogs?

Huan CK
Gallente
Garoun Investment Bank
Posted - 2009.09.16 08:04:00 - [229]
 

Few things:

a) since the motherships are supercarriers, and get all their mothership roles removed, you need to overthink the whole ship! imo this was the wrong way to go! you had better released a bomber carrier and worked on making the motherships role-defined non-carriers and pure support ships, make clone vat bays etc stay on those.. but noo, reinventing the wheel again.
Now the supercarrier is just more like a dread, just that its a carrier and uses superdrones instead of turrets. woohoo, you just didnt change a damned thing :D
oh, and now that they're not motherships, but have a lousy "kill other caps" role, and since they're non-exclusive, have no "station" purpose anymore, i say you need to make them dockable! they're nothing else than a dread with big bad drones. and dreads can dock, too!!! why would you buy a supercarrier and park it at a pos, log it off, etc, if you can have the same with a dread, dock, change ships, not waste a character/skilltime/isk, etc etc etc etc...

b) moros change?! WTF!? the drone bonus was never big enough to put harm to any capital fleet, or to towers, or what else. the only good use against towers is a tiny extra damage by sentry drones, but, IN SIEGE MODE!?!? guys! overthink what a moros will most likely field (sentries) and how he's supposed to work proper with them in siege mode! this is not gonna go into the right direction! Either make the drone damage more freaking ooomph, and make sentries fly slowly to stay by their ship, and be able to scoop them if you get bumped, or leave the ship as is! this is definately not the proper way!
if you want to do it like that, i suggest you drop the guns on the moros, and invent something like a fighter-class sentry drone! this change is pure stupid.

rest of the stuff: very nice. titans having an insta-pop weapon instead of an aoe-you'reallwrecksnow button is far better than before, but not fixing the problem the titans and doomsdays where having. the problem was not the doomsdays being overpowered in any way, no, the problem was 2, 3, 4 titans and more on the field being able to doomsday.
The right way to solve this would have been: leave doomsdays unchanged, but change the stacking of doomsdays. for example, *disallow a doomsday on the same grid after 1 doomsday has been fired for the next.. umm.. 10 minutes?
or
*make all titans on the field pop due to doomsday device overheat malefunctioning due to unstable cores if 2 doomsdays where fired within 60 seconds

you know, something to stop them from being stacked onto each other and obliterating whole fleets. a single doomsday will NOT kill a well-tanked battlefleet. not at all. you can fit most t2 cruisers, bc, bs etc to withstand at least one doomsday. again, you're reinventing the wheel instead of making the "square wheel round" :D

Bassarid
Posted - 2009.09.16 08:06:00 - [230]
 

Originally by: Gramtar
[...]
What is the role of the dread in Dominion? I ask this because, like the last time POS and sov was revamped, one of the goals I'm hearing about is to "make small gangs relevant". As we know, unless CCP was referring to afk station services shooting for 12 hours, that goal was never realized. For me, when I hear that same goal echoed, I think - if a small gang can take or disrupt sovereignty, what role does the Dread still have?
[...]


CCP "Not Seleene Anymore" Already stated that in his devblog, and i quote:
Originally by: CCP Abathur

The heavy hitters of New Eden will continue in their role as the primary anti-structure and anti-capital ship in EVE.[...]If anything, Dreads will be used more than ever against not only each other, but new challenges which will require the mentality to "Siege green"!


So what he wanted to let us know with this is, that there is gonna be something else besides posses that needs shooting, that is actually harder to kill, cause oyu need to siege green on it (multiple cycles9 while currently most posses get 1-cycled.

How that fits into his vision of not shooting a subsidiary for posses, he should most definitely elaborate on, other then that he answered it already.

CCP Abathur


C C P
C C P Alliance
Posted - 2009.09.16 08:12:00 - [231]
 

Good morning, thread. I'd like to start off by saying a few things that you all should consider in your feedback.

Dominion is not being released tomorrow or next week; it's still 2-3 months from deployment. We have no intention of springing changes on the player base at the last minute. One of the reasons we are putting out so much information now is that we want to get this stuff onto the test server and allow you all to play with it and provide feedback.

We appreciate the scope of the changes we are implementing and are not just planning to just ignore your concerns. At this stage of development, there are still quite a few things we can alter in terms of balance. We want to include you in the process and the Dev team will be following these threads, and subsequent ones on the Test Server forum, very closely.

Please bear this in mind in your replies. Smile

Originally by: Misanth
I assume that you want to separate a Fighter/Fighter Bomber bay from the regular drone bay? So that means we'll still have a dronebay? It's quite a crucial question.


Yes. The issue is simply the discrepancy in size between fighters and normal drones. Remove a single fighter (5,000 m3) and you have space for hundreds of drones. Remove a second fighter and it turns into thousands of drones. This causes a lot of problems. The new bays will alleviate this. In terms of size, they won't be 10,000 m3 nor will they be 500 m3. We will find a sensible balance and apply that.

Originally by: Moros Champions
I'm going to train Amarr now!


We're well aware of the differences. The issue is that the Moros was doing an average of three times the out of siege damage over the other dreads. A max skilled Moros does over 1100 DPS with 5x Ogre II's and over 900 DPS with 5x Bouncer II's. This is Carrier level damage from regular drones. A Dread's primary damage should come from its guns and the drone bonus should be just that, a bonus, not a requirement to achieve some sort of parity with other dreads.

As I said at the start, we have time and are paying attention. We'll be looking at this in the coming weeks and will work to make sure the Moros isn't relegated to the bottom of the class. Smile

Originally by: Battle Tested
As it stands right now capital armor reps and capital shield boosters hardly have any affect on a supercap....Shouldnt "supercarriers" and titans at least get 100% repair bonus to these modules? fitting cap rep mods on supercaps is like fitting small reppers on a battleship (basically useless)


We've had a lot of back and forth on this one and it's not completely out the window. However, the question is, aside from just boosting the repair rate or creating new ones, just how much DPS should a supercap be able to solo tank? This is a very subjective and situational argument because one thing we do not want to see is Supercarriers and Titans able to do just dominate a battlefield on their own. Ships such as these should require teamwork and the support of other classes to be utilized to their full potential.

Originally by: Supercarrier Name Haters
I hate this but have no other suggestions.


The terminology is quite fitting in that the class is an advanced form of... Carriers. The name of Mothership has always been misleading, evoking images of traveling civilizations or some grand exploration vessel, which these ships are not. Even their aesthetic shape suggests ships of war and conflict. If you ever see 'Motherships' again in EVE, they will actually look and function like they should be wearing the name.

Originally by: Various People
These changes are unoriginal.


As stated in my previous blog, one of our mandates has been that we plan for iteration. We can only do so much at once and these changes represent a beginning, not an end. Smile

Shadowsword
The Rough Riders
Ares Protectiva
Posted - 2009.09.16 08:14:00 - [232]
 

Originally by: Zeveron
Edited by: Zeveron on 16/09/2009 07:33:36
I dont have any problems with the removal of the DD, but there are atleast 2 problems with the leviathan which make that ship less usefull than the other titan class ships.

1. The shield bonus isnt instant



Agree.


Quote:

2. Crystal set is not working with capital ships

Since all the other titan bonuses are instant, are we gona see a change here?
Since slave set is working on armor tanked ships are we gona see a change with crystal sets?



As far as active tanking goes, the Leviathan is in a league all of it's own. You can easily tank 50, 60% better than an Erebus or Avatar, and without needing top officer mods, either. Adding a crystal set bonus would make it grossly overpowered.

(not that it matter much when 60 dreads fire at you, but still...)

The slave set has a real drawback. Titans are already slow enough to reach the safety of a POS shield. The crystal set drawback is totally insignifiant when applied to supercaps.



Quote:

EDIT: What about locking speed? If I need 5 mins to fire and 2 mins to lock even a capital, I dont think its gona work. Or should I fit sensor boosters to my midslots where I usualy fit my tank, which is more needed than b4?

Both changes are vital after the changes you made on how the leviathan works


Since the new titan superweapon will probably have a fairly long cycle time, and is completly immune to EW, locking time only really matter for the first shot. After that you should have a few enemy caps already locked, and no need to focus your fire with the one of your gangmates, so no need to wait for primary to know who to lock.

What's the average time for a titan without sensor boosters to lock a carrier ou dread? If it's, say, 30 seconds or less, I consider it fine.

Ezekiel Sulastin
Gallente
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.09.16 08:18:00 - [233]
 

Edited by: Ezekiel Sulastin on 16/09/2009 08:21:19
Originally by: CCP Abathur

We're well aware of the differences. The issue is that the Moros was doing an average of three times the out of siege damage over the other dreads. A max skilled Moros does over 1100 DPS with 5x Ogre II's and over 900 DPS with 5x Bouncer II's. This is Carrier level damage from regular drones. A Dread's primary damage should come from its guns and the drone bonus should be just that, a bonus, not a requirement to achieve some sort of parity with other dreads.


Ah, so you ARE in fact considering more to 'balance' the Moros than just nerfing the drones. Gee, it would have been nice to hear that 8 pages ago, or at least have that in the first reply instead of "nerf bat Twisted Evil"

What else are you looking at doing, though, and why did you restrict your development of the issue you see to a flippant "Dreads aren't being touched - except the Moros" remark in the actual blog?

Vir Hellnamin
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2009.09.16 08:28:00 - [234]
 

Originally by: CCP Abathur

We're well aware of the differences. The issue is that the Moros was doing an average of three times the out of siege damage over the other dreads. A max skilled Moros does over 1100 DPS with 5x Ogre II's and over 900 DPS with 5x Bouncer II's. This is Carrier level damage from regular drones. A Dread's primary damage should come from its guns and the drone bonus should be just that, a bonus, not a requirement to achieve some sort of parity with other dreads.




Yes, primary damage from guns, make all dreads all equal in damage output, it's balancing - also you'll lose flavour, but hey, cross-training (which is already possible in EVE) does same (in a way). ;-P

Since you're talking about non-sieged mode, it's nothing to do with POS shoots, I take?

So, why you are just brute forcing the station-camping Moros (which will be replaced equally stupid thing of station-camping Carrier), instead of fixing the station camping thru timers?


(Now, please, do spoil us with the fighter-bombers 'torp' range, since I want to know will smart-bombs in Naglfar's non-bonused high-slots make any sense.)

Zeekar
Amarr
Spricer
WE FORM VOLTRON
Posted - 2009.09.16 08:32:00 - [235]
 

Originally by: Shadowsword

The slave set has a real drawback. Titans are already slow enough to reach the safety of a POS shield. The crystal set drawback is totally insignifiant when applied to supercaps.



What drawback exactly?

Slave set gives 50% more armor hp without changing any other attribute of the ship. Slave sets dont share the speed penalty of trimarks.
The only drawback is that you cant fit a nomad set if you have a slave set in your head.

Zeveron
Exiled Gathering
HELL4S
Posted - 2009.09.16 08:42:00 - [236]
 

@Shadowsword

Quote:
As far as active tanking goes, the Leviathan is in a league all of it's own. You can easily tank 50, 60% better than an Erebus or Avatar, and without needing top officer mods, either. Adding a crystal set bonus would make it grossly overpowered.

(not that it matter much when 60 dreads fire at you, but still...)

The slave set has a real drawback. Titans are already slow enough to reach the safety of a POS shield. The crystal set drawback is totally insignifiant when applied to supercaps.


The question here is not about how good or bad (which is also questionable) a leviathan or a phoenix or a chimera can tank. But why the slave set works and crystal set is not working on caps.
Maybe they should implement a new caldari capital set or somthing. The problem with this set is that to many ppl using it doing missions in empire, so it cannot be changed to a shield bonus like slave set.

They should balance it so it works or remove the slave set from capitals also.

Quote:
Since the new titan superweapon will probably have a fairly long cycle time, and is completly immune to EW, locking time only really matter for the first shot. After that you should have a few enemy caps already locked, and no need to focus your fire with the one of your gangmates, so no need to wait for primary to know who to lock.

What's the average time for a titan without sensor boosters to lock a carrier ou dread? If it's, say, 30 seconds or less, I consider it fine


Last time I checked, I needed about a minute to lock a pos :-)

Kyoko Sakoda
Caldari
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2009.09.16 08:43:00 - [237]
 

Good blog. I'm particularly excited about bombers.

Which brings me to my (perhaps self-serving) point: could there be possibilities in upgrading the fighter bays of regular carriers to accommodate bombers? I imagine they'd work a lot like damage modifiers on other vessels. What you trade in tank or utility you gain in gank.

I ask this question when we of course have no numbers for a bomber's payload yet.

Mecinia Lua
Galactic Express
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2009.09.16 08:49:00 - [238]
 

I think the Titan change is a good one. The support fleets should be thanking CCP, no more accidentally nuking your own fleet. It should also reduce lag.

Be interesting to know what the other doomsday ideas are post Dominion.

Mothership name change. Well honestly why were they called motherships to begin with. They are tier 3 tech 1 carriers. We don't call the Rupture a Heavy Cruiser, Celestis a Support Cruiser or the Caracal a Strike Cruiser, so I never really understood the need for a separate name for the same class of ships. Supercarrier is probably a more proper name given their current and expected future operations.

Mothership might be more properly saved for a tech 2 carrier class. (Say a Battlestar or Base Star type design which combines elements of both a Dread and Carrier....and there was a Project Battlestar at CCP 2-3 years ago....)


Zastrow J
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.09.16 08:49:00 - [239]
 

im glad the mothership moniker is going away because "mom" is the dumbest nickname for a ship ever. Also anyone who ever fit a triage mod on their mothership is stupid and if you really want to spend 10 minutes frozen in space i'll gladly drop dreads on your self-tackled expensive supercap. That change should be a no-brainer

Mara Intala
Posted - 2009.09.16 08:51:00 - [240]
 

*Supercarriers are going to get new teeth in the form of the deadly new Fighter Bombers they can launch. Fighter Bombers have exactly one purpose: to destroy capital ships and look very cool while doing so*

Ok this looks really cool. A+ on the sweet look of the Gallente bomber. But my issue here is limiting them to S'carriers alone.

Iím not suggesting let normal carriers be able to put out a max flight of 15 of them like a maxed skilled carrier pilot can do with fighters (only if they fill there highs with DCUs) but from what I have read they will require being on the front line to use.


With the current cost of MOMs(14b+) I just cant see anyone using them on the front line, not when they can just pos hug and sent 20+ fighters out among there fleet.

Here is what Iím thinking. Since carriers are smaller they donít have the Best hangers and control units. So the new Bombers would take 3x the space and bandwidth of normal fighters to field. So a thanny would only be able to use 5 of them (375 BW) (75000 m3 in current drone bay) so it would make the pilot THINK about what he wanted to do. If the pilot took a full flight of bombers (5), He wouldnít be able to carry many fighters or other drones so it wouldnít be OP compared to Sícarriers which would have normal requirements for bombers (25 BW/5000 m3) cause in my mind. A ship like the Nyx has the most advanced, up to date equipment and software there is.

I just donít want to see such an awesome new drone model wither away in dust in a mom drone bay sitting at a pos cause they are to expensive to risk on the front line.

Of course the bombers will still require a mom to be used to there fullest. But to be able to use them in carriers will not only make the carrier pilots happy. But the ppl who will be building them happy to. (More need to replace them as they will get used, and lost more)


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