| Author |
Topic |
Jarslow
Caldari
EVE University |
Posted - 2009.07.19 23:49:00 - [ 1]
Edited by: Jarslow on 20/07/2009 01:02:50I just finished the third of the career arcs and got a nice (I think) fighting ship and have been spending some time trying to understand the options for fitting it out ( fitting screen image). The items fitted so far are:
- 150mm Railgun 1
- Malkuth Rocket Launcher 1
- Gatling Pulse Laser 1
- 1MN Afterburner 1
- Stasis Webifier 1
- Small Shield Booster 1
- Reactor Control Unit 1
- Overdrive Injector System 1
- Ancillary Current Router 1
- Capacitor Control Circuit 1
I fitted one of each type of weapon to be able try out different ones. I'm planning to add cruise missiles in the fourth slot, but need to train a few more skills first. Any suggestions for a better selection of weapons at this level? I had also planned to put a Deflection Shield in the fourth mid-power slot, but am still training some skills. Is that a good plan or is there a better use for these precious slots? Even with the two rigs, my capacitor still isn't powerful enough to keep the shield booster running continuously. I've been trying to cycle it on and off to keep my shield under half red, but I'm worried that if I get web/stasis and in a really long battle, I might not be able to balance it. Am I doing the right things in terms of power usage or missing something? (I gather that this is "shield tanking", maybe I just need to level some skills or fit some additional items.) The Wiki suggested these two rigs were no-brainers, but I have space for another one so any suggestions are welcome. What will my next ship look like? I gather from the chat that it will be a "cruiser", but will it have more of all kinds of slots? Will it have more power as well or will I still be struggling to keep the capacitor going? |
Sandeep
|
Posted - 2009.07.20 00:11:00 - [ 2]
Do NOT post images directly. Link to them.
Fit two 125mm Railguns and two standard missile launchers in the high slots
Do not fit laser in an unbonused ship.
I don't know how you amassed the money for the rigs, but putting rigs in a frigate is generally very wasteful (until the August patch).
Remove the webifier. If you are controlling the range, you don't need to web.
Fit two shield resistance amplifiers against the targets you will be fighting.
Remove reactor control unit
Should not have fitted the powergrid (PG) rig.
Cruise missile launcher won't fit in a Merlin no matter how hard you try.
It is normal to juggle between shield and capacitor. Permanent shield boosting requires sacrificing a lot from your firepower and is generally not a good idea for smaller ships.
Shield tanking strategy:
Because natural shield regeneration as well as natural capacitor regeneration peaks at 30%, you should keep both at above 30% each. When shield drops to 30%, start shield booster until it reaches 50%. Turn off at shield = 50% or when capacitor is below 25%. If capacitor falls below 25%, it will take a long time to refill back (and your other modules might shut down..). Nevertheless, for a frigate, the best strategy is to not get hit (use your speed). |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2009.07.20 00:14:00 - [ 3]
Edited by: Akita T on 20/07/2009 00:26:29
HOLY S**T, RIGS ON A MERLIN ?!?
I must regretfully inform you you probably made one of the biggest (financial) mistakes you could have possibly made at this stage in your character's life.
Not only are rigs right now insanely expensive (one of the reason the august expansion will introduce medium and small rigs, which will be 5, respectively 25 times cheaper to build compared to the current "large" rigs - and frigates will fit small rigs), but for the same cost of the rigs you could have probably purchased several dozen destroyers, or a handful of cruisers, maybe even have enough for a battlecruiser.
As for a more or less typical Merlin fit ?
Two 125mm railguns with antimatter charge S, two rocket launchers... or two blasters and two rocket launchers... or two 150mm guns with iron charge S and two standars missile launchers (if you can even fit that grid-wise)
afterburner, web, small capacitor injector, small shield booster... or small shield extender and three (whichever you need) shield resistance amplifiers... or afterburner, small shield booster and two resistance amplifiers
a lot of possibilities in lows, but what you have now is decent enough... alternatively, magnetic field stabilizer plus ballistic control unit... or maybe two power diagnostics if you go with ab+booster but no injector... or two overdrives for more speed... or two shield power relays if you go with the sse+3amps.
There are a lot of possibilities, as long as you stick to the following three rules : shield tank, two small hybrid turrets, two frigate missile launchers (rocket or standard missile launcher).
The reason ? The bonuses on the ship... optimal range for small hybrids and shield resists.
|
Jarslow
Caldari
EVE University |
Posted - 2009.07.20 01:01:00 - [ 4]
Sorry about the image (I compressed it down to under 100k), but I guess it really doesn't add any value anyway. As far as the rigs, I guess everyone's gotta make a few bone-headed mistakes as a n00b.  Thanks for the info. The reason for the focus on rail guns and rockets/missiles is because of the Caldari ship natural bonuses I take it? Will this also be true for my later ships or does it change for cruisers and so on? What's the reason for the 125mm (instead of 150mm) railguns? When you're new, it's hard to compare the Show Info screens between two items and understand what all the differences mean. Is there some key stat for comparing railguns? Sandeep, thanks for the shield-tanking strategy. I'd been kicking in the booster when the shield dropped to 50%, but that meant I was always low on capacitor. It's good to know that the capacitor should be kept above 30%. Akita, as far as using two Power Diagnostic units, the in-game info says using more than one of this type of item causes other problems. (I don't remember the exact wording, but it scared me off.) Did I misunderstand or is the warning just overly paranoid? |
jagoff
Cosmic Cakes |
Posted - 2009.07.20 01:05:00 - [ 5]
 Originally by: Jarslow
Akita, as far as using two Power Diagnostic units, the in-game info says using more than one of this type of item causes other problems.
some items have a "stacking penalty" where each additional item that you add doesn't get the full bonus, but it is still giving some kind of a bonus so it's not completely useless. someone else can post the math that is used to calculate the stacking penalty. |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2009.07.20 01:16:00 - [ 6]
Originally by: Jarslow
Akita, as far as using two Power Diagnostic units, the in-game info says using more than one of this type of item causes other problems. (I don't remember the exact wording, but it scared me off.) Did I misunderstand or is the warning just overly paranoid?
You must have misread - power diags are not subjected to any stacking-nerfs whatsoever, all modified attributes have no stack-nerf flag on them. On the other hand, resistance amplifiers and overdrives are, and for that matter many other useful items. You must have read the info from those and remembered the item wrong. What that "bad things" message wants to say is that each SUBSEQUENT module (sorted by bonus value, best is least affected) will function at less and less effectiveness. For instance, if you fit something that gives you +10% top speed (doesn't really matter what it is, an overdrive, a nanofiber or any rig), fiting a second one (again, doesn't matter what as long as it affects the same thing and the base bonus value is still +10%) will NOT give you an additional 10% (for a grand total of 1*1=1.21 -> +21%), but just around +8.7% (for a grand total of 1.1*1.087=1.1957 -> +19.57%), while a third one will give you around +5.7% (for a grand total of 1.1*1.087*1.057=1.2638549 -> aprox +26.38%), the fourth one only around +2.5% (for 1.1*1.087*1.057*1.025=1.2954512725 -> aprox +29.54%). |
Sandeep
|
Posted - 2009.07.20 01:17:00 - [ 7]
Forum RulesRead the description tab of the ship info window. It tells you what is bonused. 125mm fits easier and can track better. Important stats for turrets are: Optimal range: you get no range penalty if you stay inside optimal Falloff range once outside optimal range, falloff dictates how fast your accuracy falls off. 1x falloff = 50% chance to hit Tracking speed is compared against angular velocity of attacker-target pair. If angular velocity / tracking speed ratio is too high, you will miss a lot Damage modifier Rate of fire dmg_mod / rof * ammo_damage = your damage per second Not so important stats: capacitor use ammo capacity per reload Stacking penalty: This applies to only those attributes that are stacking penalized. Having two or more modules or rigs that give bonuses to the same attribute is penalized in the following way: 1. Arrange the attribute bonuses of all modules and rigs from the most effective to the least effective 2. The first one gets 100% effect. The second one gets 87% effect. For example, a 50% shield hardener now gives only 43.5%. The third one gets 53% effect The fourth one and onwards get very little effect.. So the penalty is not like your ship will explode, but a diminished gain of adding more modules. As far as I know, none of the attributes in power diagnostic is stacking penalized. |
Jarslow
Caldari
EVE University |
Posted - 2009.07.20 04:20:00 - [ 8]
The issue about range brings up another question. I noticed that my railguns have a range of about 3000m so if I have a central target, I usually use orbit -> 2500m then blow them up. However, that means that I'm constantly in motion relative to the main target.
I've noticed that the fast-moving targets seem harder to hit, so I thought that orbiting would give me some of that advantage. But, is this offset by the reduced accuracy from my own motion? |
Agent Known |
Posted - 2009.07.20 04:32:00 - [ 9]
Originally by: Jarslow
The issue about range brings up another question. I noticed that my railguns have a range of about 3000m so if I have a central target, I usually use orbit -> 2500m then blow them up. However, that means that I'm constantly in motion relative to the main target.
I've noticed that the fast-moving targets seem harder to hit, so I thought that orbiting would give me some of that advantage. But, is this offset by the reduced accuracy from my own motion?
That's where the Transversal comes in. The best way to minimize it is to burn away from the rat orbiting you and shoot it that way. The less motion there is the better. If you know how to, you can add the transversal column to your overview and experiment with different things. |
Cipher7 |
Posted - 2009.07.20 08:54:00 - [ 10]
Edited by: Cipher7 on 20/07/2009 08:58:32You rigged a merlin  Um ok try this. 2x125 rails 2xstandard launcher 1x small shield booster 2x cap recharger 1x damage control and whatever else in the lows to make it all fit Use Eve Fitting Tool to see if everything will fit first. |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2009.07.20 10:53:00 - [ 11]
Or... just get EFT (Eve Fitting Tool) and play with it for a while... it should be more or less self-explanatory.  |
Gartel Reiman
The Athiest Syndicate
Advocated Destruction |
Posted - 2009.07.20 12:39:00 - [ 12]
Originally by: Jarslow
I've noticed that the fast-moving targets seem harder to hit, so I thought that orbiting would give me some of that advantage. But, is this offset by the reduced accuracy from my own motion?
Yes, is the short answer. The difficulty that turrets have tracking a target is determined by the target's angular velocity relative to yourself. This gets bigger if: 1) You and the target are moving "across" each other at higher speeds. So if the target is flying "across" you at 100m/s, it's going to be harder to track than if it were moving at 50m/s. And if you start flying 100m/s in the opposite direction, this will double its "transversal velocity" as from your perspective, it's equivalent to you standing still and the other ship travelling at 200m/s. 2) The target is close to you (orbiting at 100m/s 20km away is much easier to follow than orbiting at 100m/s 2km away). So by part 1, if you orbit a target it's very possible to outrun your own guns' tracking and give yourself problems with accuracy. Sometimes orbiting is a reasonable tactic to take (usually when you have relatively high-tracking short-range guns, especially if you believe your guns' tracking is better than the single guy you're orbiting), but with long-range guns it's often inefficient. Your railguns have a big range advantage, but relatively poor tracking. Thus to get the most from them, you should really try to keep transversal low, but stay far away. The "keep at range" option would be much more appropriate in this case, as it will try to do exactly this. Also, 3km sounds like very short range for railguns on a Merlin. It sounds like you could do with training another couple of levels of Caldari Frigate and/or Sharpshooter - and possibly change ammo to a more long-range option. If you can get your optimal range to around 10km or so and stay that far away from the NPCs, you'll probably find that you don't need to worry about being hit much, as they seem to rarely be able to do any damage outside of about 5km. (If you were going to go toe-to-toe with them at short range, then railguns wouldn't be the best choice of turret to fit, since they trade range and tracking for damage. Close-in, blasters are a much more effective choice than railguns because of this. But keeping at range with long-range guns is the most effective tactic in missions, where you're against a lot of weak targets who like to swarm you, so railguns are a good choice - just make sure you're flying to make use of their strengths (range) and minimise their weaknesses (tracking).) |
Tau Cabalander |
Posted - 2009.07.20 13:57:00 - [ 13]
Edited by: Tau Cabalander on 20/07/2009 14:17:02 Originally by: Jarslow
Thanks for the info. The reason for the focus on rail guns and rockets/missiles is because of the Caldari ship natural bonuses I take it? Will this also be true for my later ships or does it change for cruisers and so on?
Yes. You always equip a ship for what is is best at. If you really want lasers, then start training Amarr as their ships have more cap and are bonused for lasers. Caldari ships have more CPU and are bonused for missiles and / or hybrid turrets. Quote:
What's the reason for the 125mm (instead of 150mm) railguns? When you're new, it's hard to compare the Show Info screens between two items and understand what all the differences mean. Is there some key stat for comparing railguns?
Use the right size weapon for the job. Smaller weapons are better at hitting smaller targets. This is mainly a function of tracking and signature resolution. I don't think 150 mm are wrong for a Merlin though, but perhaps someone has noticed that you can fit some other good modules instead. You may want to experiment with Eve Fitting Tool (EFT) Quote:
Akita, as far as using two Power Diagnostic units, the in-game info says using more than one of this type of item causes other problems. (I don't remember the exact wording, but it scared me off.) Did I misunderstand or is the warning just overly paranoid?
All modules that have a stacking penalty have that text. It basically means don't use more than 3. Tip: If you want to make missions easy, use long range weapons (like railguns) and long range ammo (like iron) to do missions. Shoot at everything from your maximum range. NPC maximum range tends to be about 20 km for a frigate, so stay outside of that using an afterburner and they can't hit you (well, with turrets and rockets, but you may still take light missile damage out to about 30 km). The basic 120 mm railgun has a 9 km optimal and 5 km falloff, which increases to 9 x 1.6 = 14.4 km optimal with iron ammo, so 19.4 km effective range. A basic 150 mm railgun with iron ammo would be 25.2 km effective range. |
Jarslow
Caldari
EVE University |
Posted - 2009.07.20 22:25:00 - [ 14]
I'll definitely try EFT.
Gartel, thanks for the detailed explanation. I love how deep this game is! Ya gotta hand it to developers who had enough confidence in their players to build a game where you need to understand angular momentum. |
Joe Starbreaker
M. Corp |
Posted - 2009.07.20 23:25:00 - [ 15]
Please do not undock in that ship again. Those rigs, OMG! You spent what, forty million ISK on rigs for a 200k ISK ship?
Strip off all the modules other than the rigs, and put the ship up for sale on an auction contract. There's no way you'll get the full value for it, but you might get lucky and sell it for at least several million to somebody rich who thinks a rigged merlin is funny.
Then buy a normal T1 merlin or kestrel and fit it properly. |
Gartel Reiman
The Athiest Syndicate
Advocated Destruction |
Posted - 2009.07.21 10:29:00 - [ 16]
Originally by: Jarslow
What's the reason for the 125mm (instead of 150mm) railguns? When you're new, it's hard to compare the Show Info screens between two items and understand what all the differences mean. Is there some key stat for comparing railguns?
There's a bit of depth here, too. All types of turret have at least two (usually three) 'tiers'. So within Small Railguns, you have the 75mm, 125mm and 150mm for example. The bigger tiers are, well, bigger, which in terms of stats translates as follows: - Have a bit more raw damage output
- Have a bit longer range
- Have a bit lower tracking
- Require more CPU/PG to fit
There's probably a few other changes which are usually not that relevant (e.g. clip size) but these are usually what you'd consider the major differences. Thus choosing which tier of turret to fit is a trade-off on these factors. Usually, the biggest negative factor to fitting the bigger guns is the fitting requirements; I suspect that's the reason that 125mms were recommended to you, as 150s can put constraints on what else you can fit to your ship even with maxed fitting skills; without them it's likely to demand far too many compromises for the minor benefit. To give a little perspective, common uses of higher-tier weapons would be PvP 'gank' ships, especially blasters (the principle is doing face-melting damage, so the damage boost is worth the tradeoff especially against tackled targets) and sniper ships (the extra range is worth fitting mods if needed). Common uses of lower-tier weapons include fast autocannon ships (falloff is the same across tiers and the damage increase isn't massive, but the better tracking can be very useful as can extra powergrid for MWD/extenders/neuts), dedicated interceptor-killing destroyers (75mm rails on a Cormorant can reach out far enough, and the extra tracking is great), and tank-heavy ships (lower fitting requirements allow bigger plates/extenders). Of course, these are all generalisations but hopefully give you some idea of how the changes in stats affect when and why you might want to choose different tiers. P.S. Don't confuse different tiers of weapons, with different variations of the same weapon. For example, the 75mm Railgun I, 125mm Railgun I and 150mm Railgun I are different types of turret and you get the compromising factors I mentioned above. However, the 125mm Railgun I, 125mm Carbide Railgun I, 125mm Compressed Coil Gun I etc. are all different types of 125mm railgun, so have the same basic characteristics but here the better versions are just plain better (e.g. the "Carbide" has more damage and range than the basic Tech 1 railgun, while taking less cap to fire and less CPU to fit). So select the tier of gun to use based on the above discussion, then choose the best variation of that gun you can afford, typically. |
Akura kawanaka
-Mostly Harmless- |
Posted - 2009.07.21 11:04:00 - [ 17]
Originally by: Jarslow
As far as the rigs, I guess everyone's gotta make a few bone-headed mistakes as a n00b.
seriously - yes, everyone makes these kinds of mistakes but didn't the magnitude of this stop you? each rig would have cost many many times more than the ship itself. the only possible way to do this if you really are a new character is to have already bought a plex and sold it. I'm not condeming you or judging those who buy plexes for real money, but I'd highly suggest at least playing the game properly until you get into your first battlecruiser or even battleship otherwise you're doomed to repeat this mistake with other modules. I can just see you fitting faction shield boosters on your first cruiser! TL;DR: learn the game first, then buy expensive stuff if you think you need it |
WiggyDiggyPoo |
Posted - 2009.07.21 12:12:00 - [ 18]
Edited by: WiggyDiggyPoo on 21/07/2009 12:15:32
Hi all,
Just wanted to ask another question from a Noob who's been messing around in his Merlin:
With the following:
2 x 150mm Railgun I (Antimatter)
1 x Limos Missile (Switch between Bloodclaw and Sabretooth)
Small Shield Booster 1
Stasis Web (am going to remove now)
Overdrive Injector System
50mm Reinforced Steel plates (think I should remove now)
Theres a particular agent mission where I am against 4/6 Caldari Cruisers and 2 x Caldari Destroyers. I am struggling a bit with that setup whilst trying to fight from around 10km - I am not doing enough damage meaning they can close range and my shields cant cope meaning I have to turn tail and run.
Can I improve that setup at all or have I bitten off more than I can chew ?
TBH I was about to move up to a cruiser for this mission but having read this thread would appreciate your thoughts on my setup.
Thanks, Wigs |
Gartel Reiman
The Athiest Syndicate
Advocated Destruction |
Posted - 2009.07.21 12:37:00 - [ 19]
Originally by: WiggyDiggyPoo
Theres a particular agent mission where I am against 4/6 Caldari Cruisers and 2 x Caldari Destroyers. I am struggling a bit with that setup whilst trying to fight from around 10km - I am not doing enough damage meaning they can close range and my shields cant cope meaning I have to turn tail and run.
If you fitted an afterburner, you should have no problems keeping range on those ships and stopping them from swarming you. Check the range on your guns - it's unlikely that you can get a 10km optimal with antimatter ammo, which means most of your shots will be missing. Change ammos to one that will give you 10km range (work out that percentage range change you need based on your guns optimal when empty, or just use EFT), and voila, nearly all of your shots will be hitting, giving you much better actual damage on target. Lead charges would be a good start if you're going to guess. Mind you, what level of mission is this? I'd be surprised to see that many cruisers in a level 1, but then again they've revamped things recently so perhaps this does happen. Especially if they're relatively weak cruisers without much of an escort. Some other things: - Take out the destroyers first. Not only do they ahve a very high damage:hitpoints ratio, they've got small weapons which will hit you more solidly than the cruisers' mediums.
- Fit all of your slots. Do you really only have two mid slot modules fitted? You can almost always fit something useful there (e.g. shield resistance amplifiers, cap rechargers, tracking computers, etc. in this case). And you've got another missile hardpoint you're not using that you could be doing more damage with.
[*]Drop the 50mm plate - if you take any armour damage then things are going wrong and you'll have to warp out, so you're getting zero benefit from it - while the added mass is reducing your agility and AB-boosted speed. (Even if you wanted it to give you more time for an emergency warp-out, a Damage Control would do this better and help shield tanking slightly while not slowing you down). Viable alternative modules for this slot - Tracking Enhancers, Magnetic Field Stabilisers, Ballistic Control Systems, fitting mods if needed, Power Diagnostic Systems, Capacitor Power Relays, more speed mods, possibly some others.
You will probably find that you'll have fitting issues with 150mm railguns; dropping to 125mm rails will probably let you fit another standard missile launcher for more overall damage, and if you fit a tracking computer/tracking enhancer you'll still get decent range out of them with much better tracking. |
WiggyDiggyPoo |
Posted - 2009.07.21 13:02:00 - [ 20]
Originally by: Gartel Reiman
If you fitted an afterburner, you should have no problems keeping range on those ships and stopping them from swarming you.
I'll try that again - I did have one at one point, took it off for whatever reason. Originally by: Gartel Reiman
Check the range on your guns
I think this is where I am particularly going wrong and failing to account for the effect the ammo will have on the range. Originally by: Gartel Reiman
Mind you, what level of mission is this? I'd be surprised to see that many cruisers in a level 1, but then again they've revamped things recently so perhaps this does happen. Especially if they're relatively weak cruisers without much of an escort.
I forget the agents name, and am away from my game machine ATM, but she is a mission agent based out of a 'Bank', only 1/2 jumps from Coister II (where I started). This mission is 5 of 5 in a general "I'm at war with the Caldari help me" kind of way, its not a story or epic agent. Originally by: Gartel Reiman
Some other things......................
All of that there is very useful thank you  , I think I am generally on the right track but just wanted to check before I blew a load of ISK on a new ship when I could probably just get the fitting right on this one. Ps Apoligies for butchering your post there, didnt want to quote it all straight after you have just said it ! |
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