Posted - 2009.06.07 09:36:00 - [31]

 

Edited by: Destination SkillQueue on 07/06/2009 10:13:24
The idea of an arena isn't god awful on its own, but there are some issues.

First - It has to have real losses. This is an issue I can't really see any reason to negotiate over. Ship losses are so integral part of the game and its economy, that you would have to be mad or just a really selfish carebear to want anything else.

Second - This is a dynamic world. Arenas will change the combat-PvP dynamic. The only issue is how much will that change be. The fact remains, that less people will participate in the "world PvP" after arenas are introduced. This can be seen in other MMOs, that have gone this route. With how things currently are lowsec can be largely removed from the game after arenas are implemented. It has nothing unique to keep it alive, if combat can be easily found in highsec.

Then there is the issue of CCP occationly being really dense about the dynamics of the game it made. With new features, the players have on several occations warned of the negative impacts of CCPs poorly planned features. By this I mean features that can't possibly achieve the intended purpose, because ratios/mechanics have been designed by people who lack the proper expertise to account for all the variables the players are using. This results in features, that have significant impact in theory, but are largely ignored as irrelevant in practise or they have huge unintended consequenses. This is compaunded by the fact, that solutions to these problems are slow to materialise, because CCP is then too afraid to interfere again. So we are left with broken/incomplete/imbalanced features and additions for years to come.

Third - This is sort of part of the second issue, but it is so important it deserves to be addressed on its own. What is it you are trying to achieve with arenas and are there alternative ways to tackle those issues? Is it just a solution to help find more easy fights? [sarcasm]Surely the solution isn't to fix wardecs or repair the damage done to lowsec by CCPs own design decisions. We must implement a arena system, so all but empire builders can stay in the safety of highsec forever and never have any reason to leave.[/sarcasm]

The only good reason for arenas I've seen is using it for tournaments. This could work, if nothing is provided by the NPCs. It is just a tool for players to arrange combat by specific rules, where the losses are real and rewards are provided by other players. Minimum reward could just be E-peening and the right to loot the losers wreck. The details would be a more difficult matter and personally I'm not convinced it is the right direction to take the game, since it seems to be a substitute for fixing real problems with game balance. It also doesn't remove any of the effects it has on the wider dynamic of the game, but giving players the tools to make their own tournaments seems like a reasonable feature to add to the game, so I'm not against adding the necessary tools per se.

Posted - 2009.06.07 16:48:00 - [33]

 

A lot of this is why I wanted an instant fight type feature added to Factional Warfare. Not 1v1, but huge gang fights over complexes that are easy to get into, easy to pew, get pewed, and get back into very quickly after you've been pewed. No guarantee that the fight you're going to join won't be a one sided blowout, but with Tiers that allow only a certain ship class or lower to be involved. That way while you might be blown out by pure numbers, you know you won't be destroyed by some guy flying a ship way above you're chosen area of ability.

Posted - 2009.06.07 20:30:00 - [35]

 

The major problem I see with the arena system. CCP will start trying to balance everything around it. CCP will start trying to balance the ships agenst each other in the smallest possible area of the game. It would just be horrible.

Say no to arenas. They are a bad idea no mater what game they have ever been put in.

Posted - 2009.06.07 23:08:00 - [37]

 

Originally by: Tarron Sarek

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Originally by: Qarthy

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The major problem I see with the arena system. CCP will start trying to balance everything around it. CCP will start trying to balance the ships agenst each other in the smallest possible area of the game. It would just be horrible.

Say no to arenas. They are a bad idea no mater what game they have ever been put in.

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You're taking the words right out of my mouth.

Deathmatches with real ship losses - ok.
Cuddly Carebear PewPew - hell no.

What purpose would it serve? To attract enough people, it would have to have some meaning. Riches, fame, ISK. Otherwise players would just ignore that new feature.
So that means major development time, instead of a nice little addition.
Is it really worth the hassle?

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Why does there need to be a reward? Isn't the reward getting a balanced set-up for PVP?

Anyways, I still vote no for this crap.

Posted - 2009.06.08 09:10:00 - [39]

 

Originally by: LoneLeader

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...
Just an idea =)

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no.
Actions without consequences suck, PvP has to imply loss of equipment.

Posted - 2009.06.08 09:56:00 - [41]

 

Originally by: Allen Ramses

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Originally by: Robert Caldera

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no.
Actions without consequences suck, PvP has to imply loss of equipment.

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no.
Risk-free without reward is fine, PvP has to imply gain of equipment (from your foe's wreck).

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No its not

Posted - 2009.06.08 10:35:00 - [43]

 

I see two different trends here, but the bottom line is that arena should not be in any form carefree. The limit of the losses should only be discussed in terms of allowing poding or not. Ships and modules should pop, isk sink and industry and market boost.

So if we argue arena or not I am for arena all the way… now, talking about the rules of engagement and controlling potential exploits or aiming towards equality of chances that is totally a different discussion.

The “ real” PVP is 99% non consensual and that will never die.(pirates will still hunt and 0.0 people will still defend/conquer their space). How many of you had a challenging undisturbed equal fight with someone also looking for it lately? Well that is the only thing that would potentially disappear... but if you ask me it already did.

Posted - 2009.06.08 10:50:00 - [45]

 

Originally by: Valandril

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Originally by: Guru Saurfang

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The “ real” PVP is 99% non consensual and that will never die.(pirates will still hunt and 0.0 people will still defend/conquer their space). How many of you had a challenging undisturbed equal fight with someone also looking for it lately? Well that is the only thing that would potentially disappear... but if you ask me it already did.

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GBTWOW if you want nice equal pvp with other ppl who want it. There everything is nice and even, no one is mean and after a fight you can get a hug.
Ganking work both ways, today you gank tommorow they will gank you.

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Taking your constructive criticism as a failing from my part to be explicit (language barrier and all): I just want to clarify that my point was that only the ones that are looking for fair encounters should be alarm that introduction of some kind of arena will limit their chances. For the true gankers like you and me, nothing will change.

And yes we are far better then people that play WOW !

Posted - 2009.06.08 11:13:00 - [47]

 

Jumpgate has/had a simulator where you could train for PVP, no consequences or anything, no goals either and no restrictions. This would be fun I guess for EVE (currently people can do this on the test server) as people will probaby get tired of it in the long run (with no consequences/rewards).

With a simulator it would be possible to setup player run events, tournaments and such as an additional tool for the community.

My problem with an arena as a feature (CCP adding Arena content and such) is that then it moves outside the realm of being a fun side thing to do while bored or training for Corporations into being a reason to play EVE. Being a reason to play EVE would mean people can use it to get their PvP fix and that would mean less 0.0, lowsec, factional warfare and empire war participation.

And I think less participation in those things would not be good in the long run for EVE.

Examples of where Arena based play spoiled other PvP can be found in DAoC as an example, WoW to a lesser extent (never had real world PvP) and in my opinion arena based PvP in Warhammer Online spoiled the whole idea behind Realm warfare for them.

My input, hope it was constructive.

Posted - 2009.06.08 14:42:00 - [49]

 

Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro

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By all means provide better support for what people already do informally on the test server or elsewhere. The last time I checked, the test server alone hasn't destroyed PVP on Tranquility, and neither has the alliance tournament. The tournament has always seen more teams apply to take part than there have been available slots, so a means of automating competitions ought to prove popular. The only reason we don't have more is that they're a lot of work to organise with things as they are.

I see no problem with this as long as any rewards are in line with the risks. Contests with tangible prizes should have entry fees and/or ship losses, but what's wrong with a no reward / no loss environment if people just want to test their setups?

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The issue with no loss environment is, that the more people use it, the more steam EVE loses as a whole. Ship losses make the world go round, so you should be extremely careful when tampering with it. Allowing them to do this on the test server is fine though and I don't see a reason it could not be made more user friendly to connect to it.

The test server is a very different environment though and nothing you build there has any meaning for anyone on TQ and won't last, so it doesn't appeal to any significant number of players. The server is ONLY good for testing. The dynamic that makes EVE is missing there by design. It doesn't have markets or industry. Everything is practically free and most parts of the game that make it what it is are missing. The no loss nature of combat doesn't matter there, since everything that it could ruin on TQ is already ruined on the test server.

The tournaments don't effect anything, since there are real losses and the scale is insignificant. Few fights between a handful of people aren't going to make any difference. Allow that to be the norm and worst case scenario is, that it is the lvl4 missioning equivelant to lowsec ratting. It won't remove lowsec PvP, but it will shift the focus, so much it becomes insignificant compared to arena combat. How much the real effect is can be argued though.

This in mind it would be more approriate to develop the fitting window to allow basic simulations, so people could test their fittings without risk and without ruining the rest of the game. Just something like how long your tank will last against a specific DPS level or how long can you run all modules with you setup, would allow some basic testing to be done without losses.

Posted - 2009.06.09 11:13:00 - [51]

 

In my opinion "arenas" are against everything I thought EVE is about. It was said by CCP that EVE is a harsh world where scams, piracy, wars are common and you cant hide from them - just like in "real world". No absolute regulation, you need to trust your opponent if you agree with 1v1 and because of that i like EVE very much. If you lose a ship no matter how rich you are you dont want to let it happen again. I can see the reasons why the devs wants to implement that "feature".

I know how hard finding targets could be, but thats the point! You need to plan ahead, quikly decide if engage or not - its almost like hunting. Thats what is makeing fun for me, theres no "teleport in arena" button in Eve as is in the most of other MMOs. And i would really prefere it to stay like that! On the other hand, it takes time for a new player to find out how to get good pvp in EVE. But since we have Faction Warfare getting pvp fights is more easy than it used to be so if you are looking for fight you know where to come now.

On the other hand if you in CCP would introduct some sort of arenas where the risk will be at the same level as anywhere else and players will need to be self-sufficient to enter, it should hurt EVE too much. But if you are planning to add any risk-free or risk-reduced combat, you are going against the spirit of EVe in my opinion. What about condidering adding the fourth server just for arena fighting without realy consequences on tranquinity?

Posted - 2009.06.15 11:30:00 - [53]

 

sry didnt read the whole topic, but what about a arena for low SP players only ?
when you hit 5mil sp (or lower) you cant enter the arena

so it would be a good way to learn something for new players, which are afraid yet of open pvp

and it actualy would be a good opportunity to have some fun between endless missions/mining

Posted - 2009.06.15 14:06:00 - [55]

 

If there was arena style of fighting possibility it should be made in kind of gladiator style so you fly your OWN ship against some other pre-arranged opponent(s) who's also flying his OWN ship. There could be bets and rewards placed, but the main principle should be that whenever you engage in combat you WILL have possiblity of losing some ISK.

I have yet to say that if you arrange 1 vs. 1 fight with t1 frigate it doesn't really cost anything. You can steal enough isk from wrecks etc. for fitting t1 frigate/cruiser with a noob alt in an hour.

NOT LOSING YOUR SHIP = BAD WORST HORRIBLEST TERRIBLEST IDEA EVER AND ALSO UNFAIR FOR THOSE WHO ARE ACTUALLY FLYING IN COMBAT AND LOSING THEIR SHIPS

Posted - 2009.06.18 17:18:00 - [57]

 

Originally by: Tarron Sarek

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And I thought factional warfare was supposed to bring 'easy' and 'instant' PvP into EVE

Wouldn't it be better and more obvious to adjust factional warfare instead of implementing arenas, which would very likely be a direct competition, thus reducing the participation?

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Indeed, just fix damn FW!

Also add mass restrictions (like WH) to some plexes gates so you can get that "fair fight" feeeling but without totally isolation from the rest of the universe (like instanced arenas on hisec would be).

No need to open that can of worms, just finnish your damn features at once CCP. Even if the loss was for real, the effects on the current universe could be terrible... yes I like some thigns about them, specially unofficial tournaments, bets, and all that sporting stuff that could even open to metagaming again with scams, etc. which is allways nice () but I don't see anyway to fix all the problems and effects this would have on open pvp.

Posted - 2009.06.18 19:11:00 - [59]

 

Originally by: LoneLeader

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So, sitting here, boored, and started thinking.

What if ccp made small "arena's"
In highsec or w/e , where people could go pvp without loosing their ships?

Rules?
Max 5 battleships per team
Max 10 BC per team
max 15 cruiser per team
max 20 frigs per team .
Just an example.

Yeh, you get teh idea.

maby some Modes, like 2v2, 5v5 , Cruisers only, Frigs only, mix?

I think more people would pvp, more people would actually STAY in eve, as they wouldnt have to grind for weeks to get a new ship if they loose a fight -.-

Wouldn't have a reaø effect on the lowsec/nullsec pvp, as in nullsec you fight for your alliance/corp's space, and the "arena"
would be more for fun, maby pvp training.

Just an idea =)

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GO BACK TO WOW.

seriously adding an arena with no consequences..... now you turning even pvp into a carebear activity.

Now maybe an in station sim that uses your skillset where you can "practice" and use different fittings without any loss might be ok if it had a price tag. say 100k isk per ship ( which you used until you lost) or per battle.

playing devils advocate here, we could go the other way with this and make sec status of systems in empire dynamic instead of static.a system that was .6 yesterday could be .4 today:)i know that will never happen. but maybe when they expand empire in the future they could intergrate a couple of new smallish regions like that. That are varied sec status dailyor every other day that change randomly at DT maybe.