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CCP Chronotis

Posted - 2009.03.24 17:37:00 - [1]
 

We have been looking again at ECM ships focusing on their roles and whether these ships can be improved overall to better define their roles a little more. With that in mind, we want to share some of our thoughts and gather constructive feedback and suggestions of your own.

In the days ahead, we will put some changes on sisi to see how they pan out and continue to change or tweak as feedback and playtesting continues.

ECM Range



Generally the ECM optimal range is a little too long with massive optimal ranges possible which would place the ECM specialised ships so far out of the fight to be almost completely safe but suffer no effective hit quality decrease. To bring them closer to the fight we are looking at swapping the base optimal and falloff ranges so at the longer ranges jammers would be operating more in falloff and hence have a lower chance of 'hitting' with their jammers at the extreme ranges.

Signal Distortion Amplifiers



The SDAs are something of a conundrum. They are really only worth fitting on the ECM specialised ships and are the only EWAR enhancing module we have besides the rigs. Currently they increase your ECM strength and we were looking at swapping this to an ECM range bonus and altering either the base strength of the jammers or the ECM strength bonus of the ships so they become less required in every setup and the low slots could be used for tanking for example.

Ship Changes



We have been looking at all the ECM ships (Griffin, Kitsune, Blackbird, Falcon, Rook and Scorpion). We wanted to ensure each ship had a more focused role which was not just bigger, longer range and better than the others so only one wins outright. The two main themes we were looking at was short range brawler and long range sniper. The brawler would focus on ECM strength at shorter range and the sniper would be longer range but weaker with niches in these areas for each of the ships.

Falcon & Rook



The falcon is the "sniper" of the two ECM roles having less ECM strength and more ECM range.

Falcon:
Caldari Cruiser Skill Bonus:
12.5% Bonus to ECM Target Jammer Optimal & Falloff Range per level
10% Bonus to Medium Hybrid Optimal Range per level

Recon Ships Skill Bonus:
20% bonus to ECM Target Jammer strength per level
-96% to -100% reduction in Cloaking Device CPU use per level

Attribute Changes:
+1 turret hardpoint / -1 launcher hardpoint


The rook operates at shorter ranges, able to launch a stronger ECM attack and whilst having shorter ECM range can lay some real damage on its target gaining a heavy/heavy assault and standard missile velocity bonus in addition to a small drone bay for additional utility.

Rook:
Caldari Cruiser Skill Bonus:
10% Bonus to Light & Heavy, Heavy assault Missile Velocity per level
10% reduction in ECM Target Jammer capacitor use per Level

Recon Ships Skill Bonus:
25% bonus to ECM Target Jammer strength per level
5% bonus to heavy, heavy assualt and light missile kinetic damage per level

Attribute Changes:
+25m3 drone bay
+25mbit drone bandwidth


The Scorpion



We are looking at putting the scorpion into the short range brawler role. To that end we are looking at removing its ECM Optimal range bonus, increasing the ECM strength bonus a little and adding a cruise/siege launcher rate of fire bonus so it can get close and personal.

Summary Scorpion Changes

- removed the ECM optimal range bonus
- increased the ECM strength bonus to 20% per level
- added a 5% RoF bonus to cruise & siege missile launchers per level.

CCP Chronotis

Posted - 2009.03.24 17:37:00 - [2]
 

Widow



the widow will gain a similar ECM strength increase as the scorpion has gotten

Blackbird



The 20% optimal range bonus has been changed to 10% optimal and falloff range per level.

Summary

We will continue to gather feedback from here and playtesting and post when the first changes are on sisi so you can playtest the changes. The usual disclaimer stands that nothing is set in stone!

CCP Chronotis

Posted - 2009.03.24 17:38:00 - [3]
 

reserved

IceAero
Amarr
Shadow Company
Posted - 2009.03.24 17:52:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: IceAero on 24/03/2009 17:57:49
Amazing :) :)

The base shield HP on the falcon might need a bump though...

Count MonteCarlo
Genos Occidere
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.03.24 17:58:00 - [5]
 

Would prefer it if they got deleted, but atleast this is a start

Larkonis Trassler
Doctrine.
Posted - 2009.03.24 17:58:00 - [6]
 

Terrible ideas... analysis inbound.

Dark Flare
Caldari
0utbreak
Outbreak.
Posted - 2009.03.24 17:59:00 - [7]
 

Surely if you up the strength of jammers without SDA IIs, then people will still just fit SDA IIs to make the Rook exactly how it was before, and to make the Falcon ******edly OP at jamming?

Prometheus Exenthal
Genos Occidere
Posted - 2009.03.24 17:59:00 - [8]
 

While your at it, why not make racial jammers only jam their racial counter part. Since multispecs are there for a reason Confused

Benedic
Posted - 2009.03.24 18:01:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Benedic on 24/03/2009 18:02:19
Brace for flavor of the year whining.

FINALLY CCP DOES SOMETHING GOOD (needs less strength buffs though plox)

Professor Dumbledore
Amarr
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.03.24 18:03:00 - [10]
 

Removed. Navigator

Mr Adebisi
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.03.24 18:05:00 - [11]
 

I agree ecm needs a hefty nerf, but saying a falcon will act similar to a pilgrim is a bit scary, as pilgrims are completely worthless and no one with half a brain flies them.

musgrattio
Convergent
Posted - 2009.03.24 18:06:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: musgrattio on 24/03/2009 18:22:57
The general idea is fine, DO NOT GO OVERBOARD. We still need a ECM boat that can jam around 200km, and I think we'd all agree that needs to be the Falcon. If you want to make the Rook a close range ship, fine, but recons, in general, especially cloaking recons, are generally not going to be used at very short ranges. Keep the Falcon's range as it is, lower its strength, give the Rook more missile damage, change sig amps to where the Rook would be an excellent mid range damage dealer and ECM boat. Scorp changes are great, the Kitsune is really fine tbh.

edit: I'll explain. The Falcon is the ship you use for probing/cynos, so you generally don't fit weapons on it, and even if you do, they're useless. So you're completely changing the ship here, you're forcing it to go short range, with basically no defenses. Don't do that. Keep cloaking recons long range. Simply forcing the Falcon to jam in its falloff would be a welcome change. Something like 80km optimal/80km falloff with lvl 4 jamming skills would be perfect for the Falcon, especially if Sig Distortion Amps have a 5% effect to optimal/falloff, and you keep ECM strength rigs. Falcons will still be able to jam at long ranges, but they'll have to fit specifically for it, and since it's falloff, it's not a sure jam every time.

Change ECM optimal to a base of 50km, base falloff of 50km.

A Rook with these bonuses would be optimal

20% bonus to ECM strength per level
5% bonus to shield capacity per level
5% bonus to Heavy/Heavy Assault Missile Velocity per level
5% bonus to Heavy/Heavy Assault ROF per level

Falcon:

10% bonus to ECM optimal per level
10% bonus to ECM strength per level
96% to 100% Cloak bonus
10% bonus to ECM falloff per level

There you go, you have 2 ships that while nerfed, are still very, very useful.

Telefishopolis
Aliastra
Posted - 2009.03.24 18:06:00 - [13]
 

Thank you so much.

Dangerously Cheesey
Black Omega Security
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.03.24 18:07:00 - [14]
 

So instead of figuring out how to make other electronic warfare modules (RSD, Tracking Disruptors, etc) more viable in fleet fights, you have just decided to nerf ECM to the point where it will be as useless as the others. Strong work.

Euriti
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.03.24 18:08:00 - [15]
 

Aww hell yeah

OldPueblo
Thunderwaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.03.24 18:09:00 - [16]
 

Yes swap optimal and falloff but swap it on damps as well tia.

Bad Messenger
draketrain
Posted - 2009.03.24 18:09:00 - [17]
 

Apocryptha probe system allready nerfed falcons.

Nerf more caldari ships. Soon there is not any Caldari ship to use in pvp.

SauI Tigh
Posted - 2009.03.24 18:10:00 - [18]
 

These are all horrible ideas and im angry at ccp if they nerf ecm right after they finish nerfing cruises/torps. None of the ships are going to be able to fit an armor tank with the current low slot set ups if they use an sda or not.

Seran Kela
Posted - 2009.03.24 18:13:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Seran Kela on 24/03/2009 18:15:35
Yeah, I expected the Rook to fill the brawler role and the Falcon stay at long distances with weaker strength. Interesting switch though.

Also the scorp should probably remain a sniper to still be useful in fleet engagements - cruise missiles are pretty long range so it just makes more sense to me.


Khefron
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.03.24 18:13:00 - [20]
 

okay, let me get this straight

a ship with no ehp, 2 unbonused missile slots, and a tanking layer that has to be used for its ewar role is somehow a close range brawler?

Are you serious?

Bary OBama
Posted - 2009.03.24 18:15:00 - [21]
 

Quote:
adding a cruise/siege launcher rate of fire bonus so it can get close and personal.



Since you are nerfing ECM, can you make it so missiles are no longer horrible in PvP? Give people a reason to use Caldari ships other than for ECM and ratting?

Batolemaeus
Caldari
Free-Space-Ranger
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.03.24 18:16:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Batolemaeus on 24/03/2009 18:23:57
Edited by: Batolemaeus on 24/03/2009 18:20:36
Originally by: CCP Chronotis


We are looking at putting the scorpion into the short range brawler role. To that end we are looking at removing its ECM Optimal range bonus, increasing the ECM strength bonus a little and adding a cruise/siege launcher rate of fire bonus so it can get close and personal.


Especially for the slow and numb Scorp, a Sniper Role would imo be better.
Scorps at really long ranges are never that much of an issue. They are slow, can't really get to their sniping position on their own, and their agility gives a ceptor pilot enough time to close in on them when they warp in.

Another problem is the survivability of ecm ships. As they have to spend meds for their ewar, they are paper thin. Bringing them close to the fight is suicide, their range is currently their tank.

Having that said, what about bringing rook and scorp into the close range area (scorp could be remoterepped), and balance the bonuses of the falcon, griffin, blackbird and kitsune to use range?
Use resistance bonuses (across the board, so also armor) on rook and scorp. It should be viable to use the scorp in a rr bs fleet. Maybe even shift one highslot of the scorp into the low?

Khefron
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.03.24 18:16:00 - [23]
 

on the other hand these changes will make the falcon just as useless as the arazu, and pilgrim, leaving the rapier the only recon worth a damn, so I guess this change is appropriate.

Ivanova Denisovich
Hobbit Enterprises
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.03.24 18:16:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Ivanova Denisovich on 24/03/2009 18:21:30
If you're going to make Scorpions and especially expensive Falcons 'brawlers' you really need to give them a proper tank, not a rate of fire bonus (especially to missiles, which are weak since the sig radius nerf and not good for fleet fights anyway). Scorpions are paper-thin right now and always primaried first; their one and only defence is their range. If you're going to ensure they have to be at sniping range of the enemy fleet, you should at least give them the ability to be doomsday-tanked (and bear in mind that Scorpions are armour tanked, since its midslots are of course taken up with ECM gear). Maybe a resistance bonus to armour like the Rokh's to shields?


gibbonsssss
Posted - 2009.03.24 18:16:00 - [25]
 

why don't you guys make things like remote sensor damps and target painters worth using before nerfing ecm again

SauI Tigh
Posted - 2009.03.24 18:18:00 - [26]
 

Also "We have been looking at all the ECM ships (Griffin, Kitsune, Blackbird, Falcon, Rook and Scorpion)"

Hmm notice a ship missing there? No since your part of the rebalancing group I guess not. Its the WIDOW. You forgetting it isn't a surprise since you have forgotten all about it since you released it over a YEAR ago and haven't touched it since even though you admitted in a live dev blog that they came PRE-nerfed.

DNSBLACK
Gallente
Dirt Nap Squad
Dirt Nap Squad.
Posted - 2009.03.24 18:18:00 - [27]
 

Leave them alone please

Sertan Deras
Gallente
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.03.24 18:19:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Sertan Deras on 24/03/2009 18:19:41
So you're going to make the Scorpion, the only EWar BS, completely worthless in fleet fights, that never happen closer than 120-150km? Instead, you want people to fly the uninsurable Rook to do fleet EWar?

That doesn't seem like the best idea I've heard recently, but if history tells us anything, CCP will completely ignore every concern posted here and implement it anyway. At this point, I take these little dev posts as "this will happen in the future" warnings more than honest discussions on the merits of the idea.

Bacchanalian
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2009.03.24 18:20:00 - [29]
 

The Pilgrim is a terrible model to use for any other ship. As it is it's a bastard stepchild of a ship useful in so few and limited situations that just about any other ship is more useful 99% of the time. Close-range "brawler" ships with less EHP than some t1 cruisers but with pricetags well over that of most battleships aren't "brawlers"--they're easy targets.

Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.03.24 18:21:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Scatim Helicon on 24/03/2009 19:26:58

I see that the 'better defined role' you have in mind for them is that of gathering dust in a hangar and never undocking.

As a general comment, the balancing problem with e-war isn't that ECM is too powerful, its that everyone only trains Caldari/ECM because sensor dampening and target painting are utterly worthless (tracking disruption is marginally useful but not all that great either). Approaching this from the opposite direction and de-nerfing the other racial e-war would have been a far more welcome move.

Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Generally the ECM optimal range is a little too long with massive optimal ranges possible which would place the ECM specialised ships so far out of the fight to be almost completely safe but suffer no effective hit quality decrease.


Even if this is true - and if it is, why is it a problem that the dedicated long range sniping race has long range sniping e-war - at most it applies only to the Falcon (and theoretically the Rook, but seriously who flies Rooks anyway), and so could be simply fixed by tweaking the hull bonuses rather than the base modules themselves. Is anyone seriously complaining about 100km griffins/kitsunes or 150km blackbirds?

Quote:
The SDAs are something of a conundrum. They are really only worth fitting on the ECM specialised ships and are the only EWAR enhancing module we have besides the rigs. Currently they increase your ECM strength and we were looking at swapping this to an ECM range bonus and altering either the base strength of the jammers or the ECM strength bonus of the ships so they become less required in every setup and the low slots could be used for tanking for example.

Boy I cant wait for that 1-slot armour tank on my Griffin woohoo!

Without knowing the numbers you have in mind for the ECM base strength and the SDA bonus its impossible to comment in much detail here, but the underlying problem is that the SDAs only give a bonus to ECMs and not any other form of e-war. Have them bonus other forms of racial e-war (rename SDAs to match if you like) and you have a more generally useful module and one which isn't just another Gank vs Tank maths exercise, while at the same time you take a step towards denerfing the hilariously underpowered racial e-war types available to the other three races.

Quote:
Summary Falcon changes

- ECM Strength Bonus increased from 20 to 25% per level
- ECM Optimal Range Bonus removed (52km optimal / 81km falloff w/ 2*SDA IIs)
- Increase in general manoeuvrability (might give agility bonus to it to replace the ECM optimal range bonus)

Oh boy, agility bonus and 52km optimal with a 3-slot tank and no DPS, maybe I should fit a warp scrambler too!

(This is horrible and a total abomination of everything a Caldari ship should be)

Quote:
Summary Rook Changes

- ECM strength bonus decreased to 15% per level
- ECM Optimal Range bonus decreased to 15% per level (92km optimal / 81km falloff)
- 5% Heavy/Heavy Assault missile velocity per recon ship level added (105km range with heavy missiles at max skills)
- 25m3 drone bay / 25 mbit bandwidth added

The dronebay is hilariously misplaced on a sniping ship unless you're giving us 5m3 sentry drones - if you're seriously going through with this at least give the drones to the falcon instead. Make the missile velocity bonus 10% and its not a complete write-off, but seriously, nobody complains about Rooks being overpowered in their current form, ever.

Quote:
Summary Scorpion Changes

- removed the ECM optimal range bonus
- increased the ECM strength bonus to 20% per level
- added a 5% RoF bonus to cruise & siege missile launchers per level.

So the Scorp gains what, about 80 dps max, and loses everything that makes it distinctly Caldari? I guess this new-Scorp could be useful if you dropped the ECM altogether and just used it like a raven with an 8-slot shield tank, but that's the only reason you'd ever undock in one.


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